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Good points CC. But here's the question, if it's true that all that profess His name may not be saved due to leading His children away from Him, could that hold true for those that lead many away by their preaching that faith is all that's necessary & that works have nothing to do w/ salvation, if indeed, works ARE necessary?

Could this be what the Lord was referring to in your quote "Lord, Lord have we not prophesied, cast out demons, and done many wonders in Your name"?

Listed below is a copy of a post of mine from awhile ago referring to scriptures that say works are necessary. If you're correct, you have nothing to worry about. If you're wrong however, you may have much to worry about. My prayers are w/ you in any case.

John 5:28-29

“28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation”.

So, who shall come forth unto the resurrection of life? Those that have DONE good.

Luke 18:18-22

“18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me”.

Now, this ruler was already a believer, & yet when asked about how to inherit eternal life, did the Lord say, just believe in me? No. His answer is quite revealing.

John 11:25-26

“25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now, if all that was required was to believe, why say “And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in me shall never die”? Note it says LIVETH and believeth.

Titus 1:16

“16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”.

Now, does the Lord say in their belief they are being abominable, disobedient, & reprobate, or does He say works?

Revelations 20:12

“12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works”.

Now, were they judged by their faith, or by their works? Do you feel the judgment is just to determine who believed in Christ? If belief is all that's needed, then why the judgment of works, why the need for repentance?

Matthew 16:27

“27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Now, this is the Lord speaking. Again, rewarded by their belief, or their works?

I am in no way, shape, or form trying to indicate that grace doesn't play a very important role in all this, for w/o the atonement, all these works would be meaningless. But in order to gain all the Father has, not just be saved, one must have both faith & works. The scriptures seem to be quite clear on that. But that's just my humble opinion after years of study & prayer.

Diligence, patience, and enduring to the end is required to ensure our salvation:

2 Peter 1:4-10; 2 Peter 3:14-18; Heb. 12:1,7,14,15; Heb. 10:36; James 1:12; Mark 13:13; Heb. 6:15; Heb. 3:14; Rev. 2:7,10,11; Col. 1:22-29; James 5:7-12; 1 John 2:24-25. Why? Rom. 8:16-18; Rev. 3:19-21; Rev. 21:7; Heb.12:9,10; Acts 17:28,29

The words of Christ himself:

His teachings show that obedience is required to obtain eternal life; there is no hint of “once saved, always saved” or instant salvation without works:

Matt. 19: 16-23 (point blank: to obtain eternal life, keep the commandments); see also Mark 10:17-30; Luke 18:18-30 Luke 10:25-28 (again: keep the commandments to be saved) Mark 12: 28-34 (Christ teaches the two greatest commandments, and tells one who understands them that he is “not far from the kingdom of God”) Luke 11:28 (blessed are they that DO the word of God)

Sermon on the Mount

Matt. chapters 5 to 7 (focuses on works, behavior) Matt. 5:19-21 (must keep commandments) Matt 5:48 (must seek to be perfect) Matt. 7:13,14 (the gate is straight and narrow) Matt. 7:21-23 (Must DO God's will; Christians who did evil will not go to heaven) Matt. 7:24-28 (those who do what Christ says are built on a sure foundation) Matt. 24:13 (endure to the end to be saved) - see also Matt. 10:22 and Mark 13:13 Matt. 12:35-37 (will be judged by our words, to be condemned or justified) Matt. 16:24-27 (we'll be judged by our works) John 8:31-32 (we must continue in the word of Christ) Luke 21:19 (patience is required to preserve our souls) Luke 21:34-36 (be cautious, avoid sin, to be counted worthy to stand before God) Mark 11:25-26 (we must forgive others to be forgiven ourselves) John 5: 28,29 (those that do good obtain life) John 14:15,21,23 (Christ teaches us to keep his commandments) John 15: 1-14 (we must bear fruit, keep commandments) Matt. 13:3-23 (parable of the sower: He warns that some receive the word and believe, but do not endure: will they be in God's kingdom? See Luke 9:24-26) Matt. 12:50 (must do his will to have a close relationship with Christ) Matt. 13:40-43 (parable of the tares: those in his kingdom who do evil are damned) John 12:50 (The Father's commandment is life everlasting) See also Luke 21: 19,34-36; Matt. 25 (esp. v. 31-46); John 3:5

Judged by works:

Rom. 2: 4-11; Rev. 20: 12-15; Matt. 16:27; Gal. 6: 7-9; Rev. 22:12-14; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Col. 3:24-25; John 5:28,29; Eccl. 12:13,14; 1 Peter 1:17; Psalm 62:12; Prov. 24:12; Rev. 2:23; 1 Peter 4:17-19.

Repentance and obedience are required for salvation:

Acts 2:37-38; Matt. 4:17; Acts 17:30,31; 2 Peter 3:9; 2 Cor. 7:9-11; Ezekiel 18:4,5,9,20-27,30-32; Ezekiel 33:11-20; Acts 26:20; Mark 6:12; Luke 24:47; Heb. 5:8,9; Rom. 2: 4-11; Prov. 4:4; Prov. 19:16; Deut. 6:17; Eccl. 12:13,14; Matt. 4:4; Deut. 8:3; 1 Sam. 15:22; Jerem. 7:23; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; Exo. 19:5; Deut. 29:9-15; John 7:17; Rom. 6:16; James 4:6-10; 2 Thess. 1:4-9; 1 Pet. 1:14-16; Matt. 5:48; Lev. 11:45; Lev. 19:2; Lev. 20:7,26; Matt. 5:19-20; Rev. 3:5,19-21; Joel 2:12,13; 2 Cor. 10:5,6; 2 Cor. 7:15; Phil. 2:8.

Saved by Grace - but we access that Grace by obedience:

Eph. 2:8; Rev. 22:12-14; Philippians 3:12-14; Heb. 5:8,9; Exodus 20:6; James 4:6-10; Matt. 5:7; 1 Peter 1:13-22.

We must do, not just believe:

James, Chapters 1 and 2; 1 John 3:18,19; Matt. 7:21-27; Matt. 25:31-46; 2 Cor. 5:9,10; Titus 2; 1 Peter 1:22; Matt. 12:50; 1 Tim. 6:17-19.

Christians can fall from grace, so be cautious:

Heb. 12:15; 1 Cor. 10:12; 2 Pet. 1:4-10; Heb. 3: 12-14; Heb. 4:1,11; Matt. 7:21-23; Luke 21:34-36; Phil. 2:12; Gal. 5:4; Heb. 6:4-6; Heb. 10:26-31; 2 Cor. 6:1; Jude 1:3-13; Col. 1:23; James 5:12,19,20.

Sin can keep you out of heaven:

1 Cor. 6:9-10; Gal. 5:16-26; Eph. 5:3-7; 1 Thess. 4:1-7; Col. 3:5-25; Jude 1:14-25; Heb. 12:1-17; James 4:4; Matt. 5:22; Matt. 25: 31-46; Ezek. 18.

We must grow and progress through obedience to be saved:

2 Peter 1:3-10 (heavy!); 1 John 2:4,5; Phil. 3:12-15.

2 Chr. 15: 7 Be ye strong . . . for your work shall be rewarded. Ps. 28: 4 (Rev. 2: 23) Give them according to their deeds. Ps. 62: 12 (Prov. 24: 12, 29; Rom. 2: 5-11) renderest to every man according to his work. Eccl. 12: 14 God shall bring every work into judgment. Jer. 17: 10 (Jer. 32: 19) to give every man according to his ways. Micah 6: 8 do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly. Matt. 5: 6 they which do hunger and thirst after righteousness. Matt. 5: 16 that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father. Matt. 7: 12 whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them. Matt. 7: 16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Matt. 13: 23 received seed into the good ground . . . beareth fruit. Matt. 16: 27 (1 Cor. 3: 8; Alma 9: 27-28; D&C 138: 59) shall reward every man according to his works. Matt. 25: 40 as ye have done it unto one of the least of these . . . ye have done it unto me. John 3: 21 he that doeth truth cometh to the light. John 8: 39 If ye were Abraham’s children, ye would do the works of Abraham. John 9: 4 I must work the works of him that sent me. Acts 10: 35 he that . . . worketh righteousness, is accepted with him. Rom. 2: 13 doers of the law shall be justified. 2 Cor. 5: 10 receive . . . according to that he hath done. Gal. 6: 4 let every man prove his own work. Gal. 6: 7 whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. Eph. 2: 10 created in Christ Jesus unto good works. Eph. 5: 9 fruit of the Spirit is in all goodness. 2 Tim. 3: 17 perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works. Titus 3: 8 be careful to maintain good works. Heb. 13: 21 Make you perfect in every good work to do his will. James 1: 22 be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only. James 1: 27 Pure religion . . . is this, To visit the fatherless. James 2: 22 by works was faith made perfect. James 2: 26 faith without works is dead. James 4: 17 him that knoweth to do good, and doeth it not. 1 Pet. 1: 17 (Rev. 20: 12-13; 1 Ne. 15: 32; Mosiah 3: 24; Alma 33: 22; D&C 19: 3; D&C 76: 111; D&C 137: 9) Father . . . judgeth according to every man’s work. 1 Pet. 2: 12 your good works . . . glorify God. 2 Pet. 1: 5 add to your faith virtue. 1 Jn. 3: 18 let us not love in word . . . but in deed. 1 Jn. 3: 22 we receive of him, because we keep his commandments. Rev. 22: 14 blessed are they that do his commandments.

We read in James 2:24 "Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." And as I've cited earlier, James 2:17 "Faith without works is dead", & if dead, it's clearly not enough for salvation. Paul states that even if he had all faith, but lacked charity, he would be nothing 1 Cor. 13:3 & then concludes that thought a few verses later "among faith, hope, and charity, charity is the greatest" 1 Cor. 13:13

LDS believe that we are saved by the grace of Christ which is given to us by way of covenant, a two way contract if you will; "if we accept Christ and do our part, following and obeying him, then Christ does everything else, forgiving us, cleansing us, healing us, and giving us power to return to the presence of the Father - not because we earned it, but because we accepted the terms upon which he offers his infinite grace and mercy".

In Romans 2:4-6 Paul teaches us that the goodness of God leads us to repentance & that repentance, based on faith in Christ, is an essential part of the plan & wherein God will judge every man according to his deeds. In verse 7, we read that God will give eternal life to those "who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality." In verse 13, it is "not the hearers of the law ... but the doers of the law that shall be justified" - and we know that he means justified through the Atonement of Christ, through his grace, for we are saved by grace, not by works, as Paul writes in Eph. 2:8, but it is by doing our part of the two-way covenant, the patient continuance in well-doing, that we gain access to that grace.

Salvation is not "earned" by keeping the commandments, but by our obedience, we do our part in the two way covenant of mercy and gain access to the full grace of Christ, or thereby "have the right to the tree of life."

Works are not necessarily an automatic result of "just" believing, but are something we must do to grow in faith and to seek the high goals that Christ has set for us. Through works such as love, service, sacrifice and obedience, we grow in faith and grow closer to the Lord, reaching out to receive his grace.

Now, let's go back to James 2:18-24

18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Peter also testified that our obedience brings purification of our souls through the grace of Christ. He said in 1 Peter 1:22 "ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth". In this section, he also warns of judgment according to works and of the need to be concerned (1 Peter 1:17), of the need to withstand trials of our faith (1 Peter 1:6-9); and the need to lay aside sin (2 Peter 2:1,11).

So, the question is, can one read the words of Christ Himself & conclude once saved, always saved? Is there anything in the scriptures about grace that requires no effort, no obedience, no sincere repentance, no discipleship, no patience? No.

The Sermon on the Mount focuses entirely on the works we need to do to become His children. Let's get back to the words of Christ. The Lord was asked twice, point blank, what one needed to do in order to obtain eternal life. The answer, keep the commandments, i.e. Matt. 19:16-21. Here the young man believed in Christ, but could not follow the command to sell all he had & give to the poor. He couldn't make the final sacrifice required to become perfect in Christ. He already believed, the sacrifice, or works, was where he couldn't pull the trigger.

So much more could be said here in conjunction w/ the other scriptures I cited, but it's late & I think enough has been said. I hold no grand illusions that this will change your thinking, but rather hope this will give lurkers further food from which to feast. This is important stuff here & I appreciate your civil participation.

John 5:28-29

“28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, 29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation”.

So, who shall come forth unto the resurrection of life? Those that have DONE good.

Luke 18:18-22

18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? 19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God. 20 Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother. 21 And he said, All these have I kept from my youth up. 22 Now when Jesus heard these things, he said unto him, Yet lackest thou one thing: sell all that thou hast, and distribute unto the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, follow me.

Now, this ruler was already a believer, & yet when asked about how to inherit eternal life, did the Lord say, just believe in me? No. His answer is quite revealing.

John 11:25-26

25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

Now, if all that was required was to believe, why say “And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in me shall never die”? Note it says LIVETH and believeth.

Titus 1:16

16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Now, does the Lord say in their belief they are being abominable, disobedient, & reprobate, or does He say works?

Revelations 20:12

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Matthew 16:27

27 For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Now, this is the Lord speaking. Again, rewarded by their belief, or their works?

Of course, the works here cited in these & the myriad of other scriptures I have cited earlier are in context, unlike the scriptures in Galatians for example that are talking about the Law of Moses. These scriptures here are not talking about the Law of Moses.

Of course there's a lot more here I could cite, but this should suffice & frankly I don't have the time today for a full rehash of my tete-a-tete w/ Godzilla some time ago.

Speaking of Godzilla, I just don't have time today buddy. You've taken this conversation into a myriad of different directions as is customary whaen you feel backed against a wall. Perhaps some day soon, but not now.

To both of you & all here, my best to you folks for a great weekend.

Reno, you still apparently haven't learned what it means to read material within its context. This will become very evident as we look at your 'proof' texts.

John 5:28-29

Context of this separation is defined here:
Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Luke 18:18-22

Very well then, Jesus hadn't been sacrificed yet had He? So within the Jewish context of the time works were key. However, you left off what he had to do to obtain salvation, give up all and follow Jesus.
Now, this ruler was already a believer, & yet when asked about how to inherit eternal life, did the Lord say, just believe in me? No. His answer is quite revealing.

I find your commentary here laughable - he is a believer that didn't believe. No, the young man wasn't a 'believer' in any stretch of the way. Now the essential word of Christ to this young man is, "Come, follow Me." His problem was, God was not at the center of his life. He had another focal point upon which his life was revolving. In his case, it was money, his riches. His life was revolving around his riches. His riches were at the center of his life. And Jesus touched the thing that was at the heart of his life, and He said, "You've got the wrong God. Follow Me. Get rid of that false god. Follow Me. If you want to be perfect, get rid of those idols, get rid of those things that are standing in the way, those things that are keeping you from total commitment. Follow Me, put Me at the center of your life. With that context, mormon works fade away

John 11:25-26
“25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now, if all that was required was to believe, why say “And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in me shall never die”? Note it says LIVETH and believeth.

LOL, do you read what you type? Context, context, context Reno. Where are you works in this Reno? Jesus is speaking to Mary regarding Lazereth (vs 25) and in vs 26 to the living (LIVETH) Jesus will provide spiritual renewal and not spiritual death. Contrast lazereth (dead), Mary (living). Context is not a hard concept.

Titus 1:16
“16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”.
Now, does the Lord say in their belief they are being abominable, disobedient, & reprobate, or does He say works?

It is called being a hypocrite Reno. They make a false profession of faith, not a true and their behavior bears out the falsehood of their profession.

Revelations 20:12

Rev 20:4 shows that the righteous are already in heaven at this point in time. Vs 5 says But the rest of the dead. . , those being the evil and unbelievers. These are the 'dead' referred to in vs 12. Context, context, context Reno.

Matthew 16:27

IF you bothered to read the whole passage, Jesus is speaking to the disciples (and in extension, all believers) in regards to these works. A REWARD does not equal earned SALVATION by works.

Speaking of Godzilla, I just don't have time today buddy. You've taken this conversation into a myriad of different directions as is customary whaen you feel backed against a wall.

I could easily spend more time refuting your other 'proof' texts one by one as I have so far, but you just seem like you want to post and run.

But since you cite James, let me expand upon the correct exegesis of the passage.

JAMES 2:10: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” You must be 100% perfect in your life as a mormon inorder to gain what ever grace Jesus is willing to offer -

ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” If you cannot be SAVED in your sins, you must have a perfect life.

ALMA 45:16: “…for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; - God cuts no slack at all regarding your WORKS

MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you,. . - Only after you are completely purged from sin will God's grace become sufficient for you.

Have you kept ALL of the commandments perfectly - remember Alma 45:16 doesn't allow for any 'white' lies or other fudging. Are you 100% perfect and sinless?

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

Therein lies your dilemma, you can never claim to be sinless, can you. And being in sin, you cannot be SAVED while in your sin (Alma 11:37).

So what good are you works in the sight of God Reno? God says - Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

You righteousness are as filthy rags Reno. In the hebrew, the filthy rags here refer to menstrual cloths - get the picture how God views you works of righteousness.

When Jesus was asked what work one could do Jesus said John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away ALL my sins when I believe on His Name just like He promised. He died for me while I was yet a sinner and all my works of righteousness were as filthy rags (menstrual cloths). Though my sins were as scarlet (like those cloths), He makes me (not I make me) as white as snow (Isa 1:8). It is by God's gift of grace, freely offered by Jesus that I am saved and perfected forever (Heb 10:14). I do not boast in my works - my only boast is in the Christ Jesus and His atoning sacrifice on the cross.

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” —Romans 11:6

I bear this testimony of Jesus Christ, His Grace and the truth of the Bible.