Posted on 09/20/2009 2:46:15 PM PDT by Colofornian
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Sharing testimonies is an important part of the Latter-day Saint experience. We bear testimonies in many settings — in the home with family and among friends and associates or in missionary experiences. In Church, one Sunday is set aside every month for the bearing of testimonies during sacrament meetings.
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In his address at the October 2004 general conference, Elder M. Russell Ballard of the Quorum of the Twelve...said that his experience throughout the Church leads him to worry that too many members' testimonies linger on "I am thankful," and "I love," and too few are able to say with humble but sincere clarity, "I know." As a result, he noted, meetings sometimes lack the testimony-rich, spiritual underpinnings that stir the soul and have meaningful, positive impact on the lives of all those who hear them.
He...counseled, "We need to replace stories, travelogues and lectures with pure testimonies. Those who are entrusted to speak and teach in our meetings need to do so with doctrinal power that will be both heard and felt, lifting the spirits and edifying our people."
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As we listen to general conference this October, we will hear many bear pure testimony. Numerous times over the years, we have heard President Thomas S. Monson, first as an apostle and now as president of the Church, bear such testimony. May we, as Primary children sing, be inclined to "follow the prophet" in our endeavor to nurture, strengthen and share our testimonies that we have a Heavenly Father who loves us, that Jesus is the Christ, Joseph Smith was the prophet who was raised up to restore the fullness of the everlasting gospel...
(Excerpt) Read more at ldschurchnews.com ...
John 5:28-29
Context of this separation is defined here:
Jhn 5:24 ¶ Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Luke 18:18-22
Very well then, Jesus hadn't been sacrificed yet had He? So within the Jewish context of the time works were key. However, you left off what he had to do to obtain salvation, give up all and follow Jesus.
Now, this ruler was already a believer, & yet when asked about how to inherit eternal life, did the Lord say, just believe in me? No. His answer is quite revealing.
I find your commentary here laughable - he is a believer that didn't believe. No, the young man wasn't a 'believer' in any stretch of the way. Now the essential word of Christ to this young man is, "Come, follow Me." His problem was, God was not at the center of his life. He had another focal point upon which his life was revolving. In his case, it was money, his riches. His life was revolving around his riches. His riches were at the center of his life. And Jesus touched the thing that was at the heart of his life, and He said, "You've got the wrong God. Follow Me. Get rid of that false god. Follow Me. If you want to be perfect, get rid of those idols, get rid of those things that are standing in the way, those things that are keeping you from total commitment. Follow Me, put Me at the center of your life. With that context, mormon works fade away
John 11:25-26
“25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: 26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?
Now, if all that was required was to believe, why say “And whosoever LIVETH and believeth in me shall never die”? Note it says LIVETH and believeth.
LOL, do you read what you type? Context, context, context Reno. Where are you works in this Reno? Jesus is speaking to Mary regarding Lazereth (vs 25) and in vs 26 to the living (LIVETH) Jesus will provide spiritual renewal and not spiritual death. Contrast lazereth (dead), Mary (living). Context is not a hard concept.
Titus 1:16
“16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate”.
Now, does the Lord say in their belief they are being abominable, disobedient, & reprobate, or does He say works?
It is called being a hypocrite Reno. They make a false profession of faith, not a true and their behavior bears out the falsehood of their profession.
Revelations 20:12
Rev 20:4 shows that the righteous are already in heaven at this point in time. Vs 5 says But the rest of the dead. . , those being the evil and unbelievers. These are the 'dead' referred to in vs 12. Context, context, context Reno.
Matthew 16:27
IF you bothered to read the whole passage, Jesus is speaking to the disciples (and in extension, all believers) in regards to these works. A REWARD does not equal earned SALVATION by works.
Speaking of Godzilla, I just don't have time today buddy. You've taken this conversation into a myriad of different directions as is customary whaen you feel backed against a wall.
I could easily spend more time refuting your other 'proof' texts one by one as I have so far, but you just seem like you want to post and run.
But since you cite James, let me expand upon the correct exegesis of the passage.
JAMES 2:10: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.” You must be 100% perfect in your life as a mormon inorder to gain what ever grace Jesus is willing to offer -
ALMA 11:37: “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven; therefore, how can ye be saved, except ye inherit the kingdom of heaven? Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” If you cannot be SAVED in your sins, you must have a perfect life.
ALMA 45:16: “…for the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance.”
DOCTRINE AND COVENANTS 1:31-32: “For I the Lord cannot look upon sin with the least degree of allowance; - God cuts no slack at all regarding your WORKS
MORONI 10:32: “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you,. . - Only after you are completely purged from sin will God's grace become sufficient for you.
Have you kept ALL of the commandments perfectly - remember Alma 45:16 doesn't allow for any 'white' lies or other fudging. Are you 100% perfect and sinless?
1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
Therein lies your dilemma, you can never claim to be sinless, can you. And being in sin, you cannot be SAVED while in your sin (Alma 11:37).
So what good are you works in the sight of God Reno? God says - Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean [thing], and all our righteousnesses [are] as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.
You righteousness are as filthy rags Reno. In the hebrew, the filthy rags here refer to menstrual cloths - get the picture how God views you works of righteousness.
When Jesus was asked what work one could do Jesus said John 6:28 Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God?
Jhn 6:29 Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.
Jesus Christ is the Lamb of God who takes away ALL my sins when I believe on His Name just like He promised. He died for me while I was yet a sinner and all my works of righteousness were as filthy rags (menstrual cloths). Though my sins were as scarlet (like those cloths), He makes me (not I make me) as white as snow (Isa 1:8). It is by God's gift of grace, freely offered by Jesus that I am saved and perfected forever (Heb 10:14). I do not boast in my works - my only boast is in the Christ Jesus and His atoning sacrifice on the cross.
“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” —Romans 11:6
I bear this testimony of Jesus Christ, His Grace and the truth of the Bible.
The same argument can be made about the prophets and apostles of mormonism Reno.
Happens when one treats the Bible as a series of legal arguments or a copy of Bartlett’s familiar quotations instead of the word of God....
Listen, I certainly don't have the time to get into this w/ you largely due to your history of verbosity (not necessarily a bad thing, I just don't have time for it), & your history of diversion (as w/ this post) & circular arguments.
I've got a huge project I'm working on that I must get back to. I do sincerely wish you a great weekend my FRiend.
Ask the Lord about your theories through earnest prayer. You might just be pleasantly surprised by the response.
I answered YOUR points Reno and YOUR statements. You posted nothing but your own opinions - poorly formulated and supported at that.
Listen, I certainly don't have the time to get into this w/ you largely due to your history of verbosity (not necessarily a bad thing, I just don't have time for it), & your history of diversion (as w/ this post) & circular arguments.
You sure seem to have a lot of time to go around in circles not answering others. Your post was regarding works, any 'diversions' are due to you, I only responded to present the correct biblical interpretation. Hit and run posting.
Ask the Lord about your theories through earnest prayer. You might just be pleasantly surprised by the response.
The Lord is the One who provided me with those "theories" to begin with Reno and I was pleasantly surprised by His teaching and leading. Thanks anyway for the tip.
More Jello huh?
Key lime.
True, ultimate “salvation” in the Biblical sense is found in complete reliance upon Christ’s atonement for our personal righteous standing before the Heavenly Father (2 Corinthians 5:21). Nothing we can do can make us more acceptable to God, for by adding works to faith for salvation, one ends up “falling from grace” (Galatians 5:4). While God has “ordained” us to good works, these works are not the CAUSE but merely the RESPONSE to true LIVING faith (Ephesians 2:8-10). They are the sign that proves whether a person has a living faith which saves or a dead faith which cannot save (James 2:14, 17).
JAMES 2:10: “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”
GALATIANS 5:4: “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.”
ROMANS 11:6: “And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.”
EPHESIANS 2:8-10: “For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast. For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.”
TITUS 3:7: “That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
ROMANS 5:1: “Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.…”
GALATIANS 3:8, 24-25: “And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith.…Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.”
ROMANS 3:20-22, 28: “Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin. But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference.…Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.”
ROMANS 4:4-8: “Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered. Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.”
PHILIPPIANS 3:9: “And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith.”
JOHN 6:28-29: “Then said they unto him, What shall we do, that we might work the works of God? Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
1 JOHN 5:11-13: “And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life.….”
COLOSSIANS 3:3: “For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.”6.
HEBREWS 10:10, 14: “…we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.…For by one offering he hath perfected forever them that are sanctified.”
NO, no no! It is not works that determine whether someone is worthy of judgment or not. It is faith. You see, if you have faith in Christ then the Bible tells us we are seen by God to be cleansed by Christ's blood through the atonement of our sins.
It is the lack of belief is these men that condemns them. Let me break out that scripture a little more so that you might clearly understand it (and remember, you must read that scripture in relation to the chapter it appears in, both the preceding and following scriptures.)
16 They profess to know God [to recognize, perceive, and be acquainted with Him], but deny and disown and renounce Him by what they do; they are detestable and loathsome, unbelieving and disobedient and disloyal and rebellious, and [they are] unfit and worthless for good work (deed or enterprise) of any kind, because of their unbelief.
If they are teaching anti-biblical teachings, then their fruits are anti-biblical, aren't they? We can judge whether or not to listen to them, and what they are doing by the fruits they bear. If they teach something blatantly anti-biblical like homosexuality, we can judge that they are not truly Christian, no matter how they protest.
Amen zilla,
And thanks for your aid in trying to explain these concepts to Reno. You know it took me many years of agnosticism to clear my mind of Mormonism before I could read the Bible. I hope it doesn’t take Reno as long.
Unfortunately, your journey into agnosticism is not uncommon among those who leave mormonism. There are too many atheists out there due to mormon brainwashing. Reno would benefit from you experience.
Forgot to add you to the ping above.
“Hit and run posting.”
Reno has posted on this thread a number of
times and added that he has to go.
It isn’t a going problem. It’s a growing problem.
ampu
“You know it took me many years of agnosticism to clear my mind of Mormonism before I could read the Bible. I hope it doesn’t take Reno as long.”
You aren’t alone CC.
It isn’t what we don’t know that trips us up
on our journey to the grace of God. It is often
what we were taught that isn’t so.
I had to unlearn what I’d been taught in a ritualistic
church before I could understand grace apart from works.
And as you wrote, works are the fruit of the life of
Christ flowing through us - not something we do to
gain merit.
In the case of mormonism, you have to wipe the slate
clean. It is so convoluted that there isn’t a point
of commonality with Christianity to start with.
I feel for those who are trapped in it and those who
have left in disgust and don’t want to trust again.
Sometimes it takes time. I’m glad you came to God
after escaping.
best,
ampu
Yep it’s a problem of knowing so much that isn’t true.
People in Mormonism will continue reading the scriptures just like they were taught in Mormonism....through a glass darkly.
I pray God will open their eyes and open their hearts.
SUCH latitude exists in the seven little disclaimer words..."as far as it is translated correctly"....
That is about as explicit explanation as I have seen about the effects of mormonism. Thanks, ampu.
LOL. But it really isn’t funny, it’s satanic.
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