Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

Skip to comments.

A Treasured Testament (The Book of Mormon) (OPEN)
Ensign Magazine ^ | July, 1993 | Russell M. Nelson

Posted on 09/02/2009 3:44:41 PM PDT by greyfoxx39

 

Russell M. Nelson, “A Treasured Testament,” Ensign, Jul 1993, 61

Adapted from an address given 25 June 1992 at a seminar for new mission presidents, Missionary Training Center, Provo, Utah.

The Book of Mormon stands as another testament of Jesus Christ. The power of its message will transform the lives of all who earnestly study its precious pages. Its very reality is an inspiring fact.

Many of you are experienced in the difficult task of translating written text from one language to another. I am intrigued, as you are, with the process Joseph Smith used to translate the Book of Mormon, which he said was done through “the gift and power of God.” (Book of Mormon, title page.) The Prophet learned the nature of that gift the night the angel Moroni first visited him. Moroni told him that “there was a book deposited, written upon gold plates, giving an account of the former inhabitants of [the American] continent, and the source from whence they sprang. He also said that the fulness of the everlasting Gospel was contained in it, as delivered by the Savior to the ancient inhabitants;

“Also, that there were two stones in silver bows—and these stones, fastened to a breastplate, constituted what is called the Urim and Thummim—deposited with the plates; and the possession and use of these stones were what constituted ‘seers’ in ancient or former times; and that God had prepared them for the purpose of translating the book.” (JS—H 1:34–35.)

The inscriptions on the plates were written in a Semitic language, using a modified Egyptian type of script. Some critics have scoffed at such a linguistic mix. May I tell you of Doctor Moses Maimonides, one of the greatest rabbis and Jewish philosophers of the Middle Ages. He died in a.d. 1204. He served as a court physician in Cairo and is one of the most famous figures in the early history of medicine. Hospitals are named after him today. In Cairo he read and pondered the words of earlier Muslim thinkers and wrote his philosophical books in Arabic using the Hebrew alphabet. This is but one of many instances from ancient and medieval periods in which the script of one language has been used to write in another language. (See Daniel C. Peterson, Abraham Divided; An LDS Perspective on the Middle East, Salt Lake City: Aspen Books, 1992, p. 205.) Indeed, history confirms that such a linguistic mix was not unusual at all.

I am intrigued that Joseph Smith—an unschooled young man in rural America—could have translated this Semitic language mix into the English language. That unlikely scenario relates to Isaiah’s remarkable prophecy:

“I will proceed to do a marvellous work among this people, even a marvellous work and a wonder.” (Isa. 29:14.)

The Hebrew text of the Old Testament from which that phrase was translated uses the word pele, meaning “miracle.” Thus one could also accurately interpret “a marvellous work and a wonder” as a “miraculous miracle.”

Truly, this latter-day work is precisely that. Think of the short time Joseph took to translate the Book of Mormon. Working from April to June of 1828, Joseph translated the 116 pages that Martin Harris later lost. Joseph began translating again on Tuesday, April 7, 1829, with Oliver Cowdery as scribe. The manuscript was completed eighty-five days later, on June 30 of that year. Of course, not all of that time was spent working on the translation. The Prophet and his scribes also took time to eat, to sleep, to seek employment, to receive the Aaronic and Melchizedek priesthoods, to make at least one (and possibly two) trips to Colesville thirty miles away, to receive and record thirteen revelations that are now sections of the Doctrine and Covenants, to move from Harmony to Fayette, to acquire the Book of Mormon copyright, and to begin making arrangements for the publication of the Book of Mormon. Conservatively estimated, this left sixty-five or fewer working days on which the prophet and his scribes translated this book, which contains 531 pages in its current edition. (See John W. Welch, Ensign, Jan. 1988, pp. 46–47.) That calculates to an average of eight pages per day. Consider this when you translate a book, or as you schedule your own reading of the Book of Mormon.

As Oliver Cowdery testified a few years later: “These were days never to be forgotten—to sit under the sound of a voice dictated by the inspiration of heaven, awakened the utmost gratitude of this bosom! Day after day I continued, uninterrupted, to write from his mouth, as he translated … the history or record called ‘The Book of Mormon.’ ” (JS—H 1:71n.)

The details of this miraculous method of translation are still not fully known. Yet we do have a few precious insights. David Whitmer wrote:

“Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man.” (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)

Emma Smith, who acted as an earlier scribe for Joseph, gave this account in 1856:

“When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him.

“When he stopped for any purpose at any time he would, when he commenced again, begin where he left off without any hesitation, and one time while he was translating he stopped suddenly, pale as a sheet, and said, ‘Emma, did Jerusalem have walls around it?’ When I answered, ‘Yes,’ he replied, ‘Oh! [I didn’t know.] I was afraid I had been deceived.’ He had such a limited knowledge of history at that time that he did not even know that Jerusalem was surrounded by walls.” (Edmund C. Briggs, “A Visit to Nauvoo in 1856,” Journal of History, Jan. 1916, p. 454.)

On another occasion, Emma Smith recorded:

“The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at concealment, wrapped in a small linen tablecloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I once felt of the plates as they thus lay on the table, tracing their outline and shape. They seemed to be pliable like thick paper, and would rustle with a metallic sound when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.” (“Last Testimony of Sister Emma,” Saints’ Herald, 1 Oct. 1879, p. 290; spelling modernized.)

Although the Prophet would polish his skills over the years, Emma acknowledged that Joseph possessed only rudimentary literacy at the time he translated the gold plates:

“Joseph Smith … could neither write nor dictate a coherent and well-worded letter; let alone dictating a book like the Book of Mormon. And, though I was an active participant in the scenes that transpired, it is marvelous to me, ‘a marvel and a wonder,’ as much so as to any one else.” (Ibid.)

Because the Book of Mormon is a translation of a modified Hebrew language, it contains many Hebraisms. We might list a few examples because they are so unlike the language that would have been familiar to a young man in rural New York at that time:

• Nouns followed by descriptive phrases—such as “altar of stones,” “plates of brass,” “mist of darkness.”

• Prepositional phrases used instead of adverbs—such as “with harshness,” “with joy,” “with gladness,” “in diligence.”

• Cognate accusative constructions—“dreamed a dream,” “cursed with sore cursing,” “work all manner of fine work.”

• Hebrew words with double meaning—such as Nahum, meaning “mourning,” and Jershon, meaning “inheritance.” Events involving those specific actions took place at locations bearing those meaningful names.

• Chiasms. This term is derived from the Greek letter Chi (or the English x), which describes text written in an inverted parallel structure. As a young LDS missionary, John Welch discovered that many chiasms exist in the Book of Mormon as well as in the Bible. I am told that emphasis in these ancient languages was not provided by punctuation. Therefore, other devices, such as chiasm, were used occasionally to stress important thoughts.

Sister Nelson and I have a close friend and former neighbor, Sami Hanna, who was born in Egypt. He is a scholar with special expertise in Semitic languages. As a linguistic exercise, he translated the Book of Mormon from English into Arabic. The exercise converted him to the divinity of the Book of Mormon. Among the many linguistic features that convinced him of the book’s divinity was this unusual sentence in Helaman, chapter 3, verse 14. [Hel. 3:14] This would hardly be an expression of a 24-year-old man from the New York frontier:

“But behold, a hundredth part of the proceedings of this people, yea, the account of the Lamanites and of the Nephites, and their wars, and contentions, and dissensions, and their preaching, and their prophecies, and their shipping and their building of ships, and their building of temples, and of synagogues and their sanctuaries, and their righteousness, and their wickedness, and their murders, and their robbings, and their plundering, and all manner of abominations and whoredoms, cannot be contained in this work.”

That single sentence has eighteen ands. Now, if you were a teacher of English you might tend to downgrade the composition of that sentence. Yet my scholarly Egyptian friend said that every one of those ands was an important element in the construction of that sentence, allowing his translation to flow smoothly back to a Semitic language.

Of course the great worth of the Book of Mormon lies not in its miraculous translation, wondrous as it was, nor in its stories that we read to our children. The great worth of the Book of Mormon is that it is another testament of Jesus Christ. All four of its major authors—Nephi, Jacob, Mormon, and Moroni—were eyewitnesses of the Lord, as was His inspired translator of that book. The Book of Mormon is the great clarifier of doctrine. It refutes many myths, and at the same time affirms truths previously obscured. And it reveals many glorious doctrines lost or previously unknown.

First let us examine a few myths the book refutes or denies. The Book of Mormon refutes the doctrine of predestination. It refutes the ex nihilo (“out of nothing”) idea of creation. It refutes the false but pervasive notion of original sin. It refutes the fable of faith without works. It refutes the adequacy of goodness alone without exalting ordinances. It refutes the practice of infant baptism. It refutes methods of baptism other than that of immersion by one bearing proper authority. It refutes the arbitrary restriction that revelation from God ended with the Bible.

There are some things that the Book of Mormon is not. It is not a text of history, although some history is found within its pages. It is not a definitive work on ancient American agriculture or politics. It is not a record of all former inhabitants of the Western Hemisphere, but only of particular groups of people.

Resoundingly, the Book of Mormon affirms, among many eternal truths, the existence of a living and loving Father in Heaven. It affirms the nature of our Heavenly Father’s plan of salvation, happiness, and mercy. It declares, as another testament, the generation and divinity of Jesus the Christ. It teaches of His ministry, and of His atonement. While doubts about Jesus exist among today’s ministers and scholars, the Book of Mormon stands as an international beacon of divine truth. The Lord said:

“The testimony of two nations is a witness unto you that I am God, that I remember one nation like unto another. … And when the two nations shall run together the testimony of the two nations shall run together also.” (2 Ne. 29:8.)

The Book of Mormon affirms the sublime status of man’s moral agency and sets forth stern standards of accountability and responsibility for our choices. It affirms the reality and inevitability of our impending judgment, which will be done with a perfect blending of the justice and mercy of God. (See Alma 12:15.) It deepens our understanding of the Master’s statement once made near Galilee’s shore:

“Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.” (Matt. 5:48.)

To the Nephites Jesus reaffirmed that commandment, but then as the resurrected Lord, He listed Himself as having recently achieved that state of perfection. (See 3 Ne. 12:48.)

The Book of Mormon affirms that the people in the Western Hemisphere were among the “other sheep” to whom Jesus had earlier referred. (See John 10:16; 3 Ne. 15:17, 21.) And it affirms the existence of another society to whom Jesus would minister—those we know as the lost tribes of Israel.

It affirms the reality of premortal life.

It reaffirms the sanctity of and the necessity for the sacrament, as taught in the Bible.

In addition to the refutation of myths and the clarification of concepts previously unclear, the Book of Mormon reveals glorious truths heretofore lost or unknown to the mind of man:

It reveals the state of the soul between death and resurrection.

It reveals the endless nature of the priesthood of God and the foreordination of choice spirits called and prepared from the foundation of the world for leadership in the latter days. From the Book of Mormon we know that each of you has been foreordained, foredetermined, and reserved to come forth at this particular time to accomplish the mighty work you have been called to do.

The Book of Mormon reveals what the term gospel truly means. The Lord declared, “This is the gospel which I have given unto you—that I came into the world to do the will of my Father, because my Father sent me.” (3 Ne. 27:13.) That sentence is as sparklingly clear as it is brief. The Savior then explained in fuller detail His mission and His atonement (see 3 Ne. 27:13–21), concluding His definitions by again saying, “This is my gospel” (3 Ne. 27:21).

The Book of Mormon reveals the important interrelationships between the Creation, the Fall, and the Atonement. One cannot fully comprehend the Atonement without first understanding the Fall; and the fall of Adam cannot be fully understood without first understanding the Creation. These three great doctrinal pillars sustain each other in God’s eternal plan.

The Book of Mormon reveals that Joseph, the son of Jacob who was once sold into Egypt, foresaw the Prophet Joseph Smith and his day (see 2 Ne. 3:6–21) and noted that there would be many similarities in their lives. Centuries later, the Prophet Joseph stated, “I feel like Joseph in Egypt.” (The Personal Writings of Joseph Smith, ed. Dean C. Jessee, Salt Lake City: Deseret Book Co., 1984, p. 409; spelling modernized.)

The Book of Mormon reveals that the inheritance of Joseph, son of Israel, was not forgotten when, as promised in the Abrahamic covenant, land was distributed to the tribes of Israel. Joseph’s inheritance was to be a land choice above all others. (See Ether 13:2, 8.) It was choice not because of beauty or wealth of natural resources, but choice because it was chosen. It was to be the repository of sacred writing on plates of gold from which the Book of Mormon would one day come, choice because it would eventually host world headquarters of the restored church of Jesus Christ in the latter days.

The Book of Mormon reveals that Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary, is literally the Son of God. No book of scripture bears more solemnly the weighty burden of that testimony than does the Book of Mormon. Its pages contain nearly four thousand references to Christ, using more than one hundred different titles for Him. His holy name is mentioned on the average of once per every 2.8 verses. No wonder this book has been designated “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.”

The Book of Mormon reveals that the keeper of the gate at Judgment will be Jesus, the holy one of Israel. There each one of us will stand before Him to be judged.

The Book of Mormon contains many insightful and stunning gems. The late Elder Robert E. Sackley of the Seventy attributed his conversion to this brilliant passage of scripture, which he memorized while hospitalized as a young military commando—even prior to his baptism:

“The natural man is an enemy to God, and has been from the fall of Adam, and will be, forever and ever, unless he yields to the enticings of the Holy Spirit, and putteth off the natural man and becometh a saint through the atonement of Christ the Lord, and becometh as a child, submissive, meek, humble, patient, full of love, willing to submit to all things which the Lord seeth fit to inflict upon him, even as a child doth submit to his father.” (Mosiah 3:19.)

Elder Sackley’s life was never to be the same after his decision to live in accord with that remarkable single sentence of scripture.

To me, the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon is most evident in the mighty change that comes into the lives of those who read it “with a sincere heart, with real intent, having faith in Christ.” (Moro. 10:4.) Many of them forsake much that they held dear to be true to their new commitment to abide by the precepts of that book.

The Book of Mormon truly is a treasured testament. There is no other book quite like it. Can you find any other book delivered by an angel? Can you think of any other book prepared for people to read centuries later? Its writers did not write it for readers of their day. No royalties accrued to its authors from sales to contemporary consumers. In fact, its authors paid dearly for their privilege of authorship, as did its translator.

It is a book that the Lord Jesus Christ has personally testified to be true. In the form of an oath, the Lord said—referring to the Prophet Joseph Smith’s work:

“He has translated the book, even that part which I have commanded him, and as your Lord and your God liveth it is true.” (D&C 17:6.)

You know well this promise that the Lord offers to readers of the Book of Mormon:

“If you do these last commandments of mine, which I have given you, the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; for my grace is sufficient for you, and you shall be lifted up at the last day.” (D&C 17:8.)

The Prophet Joseph Smith declared—and his successor, President Ezra Taft Benson, has reaffirmed—that the Book of Mormon is the keystone of our religion. It is a treasured testament of truth. It is the prophesied sign that “the Lord has commenced to gather Israel and fulfill his covenants.” (3 Ne. 29, chapter heading.)

Solemnly, I add my witness to that of my Brethren. It is true! In the name of Jesus Christ, amen.

 



TOPICS: General Discusssion; Theology
KEYWORDS: antimormonthread; lds; mormon; testament
Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220221-234 next last
To: Saundra Duffy
Stop quoting other quotes from other quotes from other quotes to the point where it is ridiculous.

Huh?

Quoting ORIGINAL Mormon statements does seem a bit ridiculous; to a TBM: but to LURKERS who have little knowledge other than what the Great Spin Machine located in SLC tells them - they are INVALUABLE!

181 posted on 09/04/2009 4:32:35 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy; restornu
You know, we are a peculiar people.

You are NOT talking about RESTORNU - are you?

182 posted on 09/04/2009 4:33:20 PM PDT by Elsie (Heck is where people, who don't believe in Gosh, think they are not going...)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
The pioneer women of my Church were persecuted every bit as severely as the men of my Church. And to this day we have to put up with it, which we do, as it is proof that our Church is true. Persecution comes with the territory. Keep it up if you must. (sob...sob!)

Yeah, the poor multi-billion-dollar-Corporation-Of-The-Prez of the LDS church...is SO, SO "persecuted"....

Report: 3000 Chinese Christians “Killed” Since 2000

Thousands of Chinese Christians have been killed for their faith since the year 2000, according to an investigation of senior Christian rights officials published Monday, September 3. “In the last seven years 3,000 Christians were killed,” said Ulrich Delius, the Asia expert of the German-based Society for Threatened Peoples, which campaigns against all forms of genocide and “ethnocide”. The allegations were expected to further increase international concerns that China’s pledged economic reforms are not backed-up by more religious and poltical freedoms."

Photobucket

183 posted on 09/04/2009 4:48:14 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Obama, the cow patty version of Midas. Everything he says is bull, everything he touches is crap.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 173 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy
Oh, I just wanted to make the point that we are faithful tithe payers which kind of sets us apart.

What it the world makes you believe that Christians are NOT "faithful tithe payers"??

How do you think we pay those "paid" pastors? BTW, WE pay for the missionaries we send out. We even have a special fund for it.

184 posted on 09/04/2009 4:53:01 PM PDT by greyfoxx39 (Obama, the cow patty version of Midas. Everything he says is bull, everything he touches is crap.)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy; svcw

You know, we are a peculiar people
________________________________________________

Just not the peculiar people of the Bible...

1Pe 2:9 But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light:

1Pe 2:10 Which in time past [were] not a people, but [are] now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy.

1Pe 2:11 ¶ Dearly beloved, I beseech you as strangers and pilgrims, abstain from fleshly lusts, which war against the soul;

1Pe 2:12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles: that, whereas they speak against you as evildoers, they may by [your] good works, which they shall behold, glorify God in the day of visitation. 1 Peter 2:9-12

So let’s look at this passage, grassshopper...

V9 Chosen generation.. and yet the generation that Peter was speaking to is the one that mormons claim was taken out of the world...how can they be chosen and banned at the same time ??? How can the mormons of today be a chosen generation if that one back then was ??? Rememeber, according to mormon doctrine, there was no continuation of generations and Joey Smith’s generation has come and gone...

a royal priesthood...this leaves you out Saundra...females cant be priesthoods...

an holy nation...Peter was talking to the Jews...this would be only the Laminites of course...well you are already disqualified up stream but unless you are an American Indian again you’re out...

that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light...Nope again... singing Praises to the Man and worshipping Joey Smith is not what is required here..FAIL...

V10 Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: ...this one disqualifies EVERY mormon...they believe they were always part of their mormon god...

now have obtained mercy. ...Mormons dont believe they need any mercy...theyre too good for stuff like that...

V11 abstain from fleshly lusts, ..Mormons revere Joey Smith and Brigham Young and other mormon leaders FOR their earthly lusts...and believe D&C 132...as part of their sacred doctrines...FAIL...

V12 Having your conversation honest among the Gentiles:..ROFLMBO...Yes well...FAIL...

Gosh Saundra...What happened ????


185 posted on 09/04/2009 9:10:02 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy; svcw

we are faithful tithe payers which kind of sets us apart.
___________________________________________________

OK lets see where the history of mormons as tithe payers started...

Lets go back to Brigham Young, 1857

Hopefully Saundra is obeying the profit BY...

“On the north-east corner is the Tithing. office, a large spacious building, with cellars, store-rooms, and offices attached. Each person on entering the Mormon Church is required to pay the tenth part of his or her property to the Lord’s servants for “building up temples, or otherwise beautifying and adorning Zion, as they may be directed froin on higb.”

Having tithed their property, they must tithe their yearly increase for the same purpose. This tenth part 36 is really a fifth part; for each man is required to work every tenth day on the Temple, or hire a substitute, and as well pay the tenth of the increase on the other nine days’ labor. It is even more than this in many cases, amoutLing nearly to fifty per cent., as the ladies pay the tenth part of their fowls, then a tenth part of the eggs, and then a tenth part of the chickens that may be hatched, irrespective of loss.

This law of tithing, however, is only the “milk of the gospel;” and was the preparative to a more rigid system of property-holding. Smith, in the beginning of the Church, attempted to establish Communism, each giving their all to the Bishop, and only drawing out of the office sufficient to live upon. This, however, was not more practicable for Smith than for Fourier or Cabet, and it was silently permitted to glide into the payment of tithing. In 1854, however, Brigham attempted to revive the old law in an improved shape. Hie commanded the people to consecrate by legal transfer all right and title to all personal property.

A law was passed through the Legislature making such transfers strictly valid; quit claim deeds were drawn up, and from their land to their wearing apparel, the majority of the people transferred every thing to Brigham, or his successor, as trustee in trust for the Church of Latter-day Saints; and some, in the exuberance of enthusiasm, threw in their wives and families. The property of each is retained by each person only at the option of Biigham Young. He can eject any person who has thus “conseerated,” for he becomes strictly a trespasser by toleration on Church property. Each is permitted to enjoy the fruits of his labors on condition of his paying a net tithe for immediate 37 purposes, and to be ready to give up ALL should it be required in any emergency.

Thus in fact Brigham is the positive owner of almost all the property in the Territory, and is one of the wealthiest men in the world, holding all at his unconditioned will. He frankly stated the object of this policy at the conference. It was to prevent Gentiles from purchasing any property without ecclesiastical sanction; to hinder departing apostates from taking any property firom the Territory; to make it the interest of every man to be submissive, and thus to more completely rule the people. Said he, “Men love riches, ard can’t leave without means; now, if you tie up the calf the cow will stay.”

Some distressing circumstances have already resulted from the operation of this law. Brigham was in earnest at its devisal, and will be in earnest as to enforcing its execution. Hle thinks of re-establishing Smith’s system of ecclesiastical communism by degrees, and by using the mace of the priesthood, to drub refractory individuals into the practice of obedience. The tithing contributed by the people is paid to the employees of the “Public Works;” and, as the authorities are engaged on public duty, of course they have the first selection, the tithing clerks posting an open account between them and the Lord. Favoritism the most glaring is exhibited in the distribution of the articles. They pretend to pay very large wages to artizans, and salaries to the clerks, but charge equally exorbitantly for articles paid; and while the leading clerks, etc., have an abundance, the poor artizan is half starved, half clad, wretchedly housed, almost insulted on applying for any thing; and], by a 38 singular system of book-keeping, are always found heavily in debt, should they wish to quit and find other employment.

I an give instances of these thlings by dozens. It is universally known at Utah, and almnost universally reproached. I have seen many tears, heard many groans and curses on D. H. Wells, the Superintendent of the Public Works, general business man, third President of the Church, and a prophet, seer, and revelator forsooth, for the misery endured by the suffering “ hands.” In some cases such pretended balances of account have been collected by law with monstrous officers’ fees, from persons who were disgusted with Mormonism, and who were leaving Utah.

(John Hyde. Mormonism: its leaders and designs.New York: W.P. Fetridge, 1857. Pp 36-39)


186 posted on 09/04/2009 9:38:47 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 176 | View Replies]

To: Saundra Duffy

I have an lds friend who receives a bill from her bishop every month based on her last years W2s.
I can not tell you if that is common practice, but tithing is between you and God not between you and the ward bishop. The reality is no one should even know you are tithing and for that matter what the amount is.......between you and God.
I sure hope billing for tithes is not common.

***

When the Bishop ask during tithing settlement once a year if one is a full tithe payer there is no way for him to know (nor does he need to know because) it is between the person and the Lord.

There is no W2 check required it is the honor system.

Now if one has employment through the Church part of their qualifications is to be worthy to hold a temple recommend (still the honor system) or they cannot be employed in the Church.

So when there are behaviors changes that is contrary to the Church one of the signs of apostatizing is by not paying tithes.

Amazing isn’t it Saundra how the distorter tries to deceive others.


187 posted on 09/05/2009 7:38:57 AM PDT by restornu (Always love your country ~ but never trust your government! ~ Robert Novak)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 178 | View Replies]

To: restornu; Saundra Duffy

Well, well. I would think that if one is responding to a post I made they should at least ping me on it, wouldn’t you think.
If you notice I did say “I can not tell you if this is common practice”.
If you notice I did say that tithing is between you and God not you and some other person.
So if you are saying that this is not common practice - good. It could be very well that this particular bishop has gone to far.
Don’t call me a liar again, with out pining me.


188 posted on 09/05/2009 9:14:01 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: All
When the Bishop ask during tithing settlement once a year if one is a full tithe payer

What is tithing settlement?

189 posted on 09/05/2009 9:18:44 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 187 | View Replies]

To: svcw

so you think you are a liar for spreading gossip Interesting!


190 posted on 09/05/2009 9:20:40 AM PDT by restornu (Always love your country ~ but never trust your government! ~ Robert Novak)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 188 | View Replies]

To: restornu

Huh?
You implied I was a liar.
Again, I said “I do not know if this is common practice”. Why that is difficult for you to comprehend I do not know.
All you have to say is “it is not common practice or this particular bishop has gone to far”. Simple really.
However, one might infer because you are not willing to refute (or even answer) my question or even directly refer to the question, that it is in fact true.


191 posted on 09/05/2009 9:32:16 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 190 | View Replies]

To: restornu; svcw

Discuss the issues all you want, but do not make it personal.


192 posted on 09/05/2009 9:35:17 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 191 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

Do you mind expanding, where I am called a liar means I am getting personal.
If you have the time.


193 posted on 09/05/2009 9:55:20 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

Oh, it does not bother me to called a liar, just to let you know.


194 posted on 09/05/2009 9:56:06 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 192 | View Replies]

To: svcw; restornu
Restornu did indeed imply that you are a liar which is attributing motive, making it personal. She did not make a direct accusation; however, she was making the thread "about" you which is also making it personal.

In reply, you made it personal by reading her mind, e.g. "you are not willing to refute".

Two wrongs do not make a right.

Do not let this thread be "about" individual Freepers. Discuss the issues.

195 posted on 09/05/2009 10:02:55 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 193 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

Thanks.


196 posted on 09/05/2009 10:06:11 AM PDT by svcw (Legalism reinforces self-righteousness - it communicates to you the good news of your own goodness)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator; svcw
In reply, you made it personal by reading her mind, e.g. "you are not willing to refute

really?

"I have an lds friend who receives a bill from her bishop every month based on her last years W2s."

****

So when there are behaviors changes that is contrary to the Church one of the signs of apostatizing is by not paying tithes.

Amazing isn’t it Saundra how the distorter tries to deceive others.

The distorter in this case would be the LDS Friend who for what ever reason made an untrue accusation or excluded some vital detail!

197 posted on 09/05/2009 11:08:36 AM PDT by restornu (Always love your country ~ but never trust your government! ~ Robert Novak)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 195 | View Replies]

To: restornu; svcw
Your intent was not clearly stated. And the inference is reasonable because you did not retain the poster's name (svcw) when pressing "reply." By overwriting it, the reply is an aside.
198 posted on 09/05/2009 11:21:44 AM PDT by Religion Moderator
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 197 | View Replies]

To: Religion Moderator

Seems like mind reading!


199 posted on 09/05/2009 12:18:38 PM PDT by restornu (Always love your country ~ but never trust your government! ~ Robert Novak)
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 198 | View Replies]

To: restornu; svcw; greyfoxx39; Saundra Duffy

So when there are behaviors changes that is contrary to the Church one of the signs of apostatizing is by not paying tithes.
____________________________________________

Actually in this day and timed, if someone sdidnt pay tithes the first consideration would have to be that they got laid off...

Another might be large medical bills, etc...

Why would it have to be some type of sin that would prevent a person from paying tithes...

At the church I attend, that person would get bags of groceries, and help, not unfounded accusations...

Did someonre tell you personally that they had sinned and thus could not tithe...

I really dont understand the corrolation...

Tis passing strange..


200 posted on 09/05/2009 3:26:21 PM PDT by Tennessee Nana
[ Post Reply | Private Reply | To 197 | View Replies]


Navigation: use the links below to view more comments.
first previous 1-20 ... 161-180181-200201-220221-234 next last

Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.

Free Republic
Browse · Search
Religion
Topics · Post Article

FreeRepublic, LLC, PO BOX 9771, FRESNO, CA 93794
FreeRepublic.com is powered by software copyright 2000-2008 John Robinson