Nora Lozano
Posted on 08/01/2009 1:51:11 PM PDT by NYer
EDE, Netherlands (ABP) -- A Latina theologian says overreaction to Catholic veneration of the Virgin Mary has caused Baptists to miss important biblical teaching associated with the mother of Jesus.
Nora Lozano
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Lozano, a participant in theological conversations between the Baptist World Alliance and the Vatican, made the remarks in a presentation to the BWA Commission on Doctrine and Interchurch Cooperation at a meeting of global Baptists in the Netherlands.
She noted the Mexican story of the Virgin of Guadalupe -- a purported apparition of Mary to an indigenous peasant in Mexico City in the 16th century -- and how closely it ties the identity of the nation's Catholicism with Mary, who serves as a sort of "demi-goddess."
There are analogous Virgin Mary cults of devotion in other Latin American countries.
Lozano said Mexican Baptists and other Protestants, meanwhile, actively ignore Mary, to the extent of giving the biblical character short shrift.
"It seems that there is a consensus among these Baptists to disregard, neglect or reject the Virgin Mary," Lozano said, speaking of an informal survey she had done of some of her global Baptist colleagues.
And, in countries where Catholics are a majority, she added, "Baptists tend to move back and forth between actively rejecting and simply ignoring Mary."
In those countries, Lozano noted, "This becomes one of the major barriers to relations between Catholics and Baptists."
Because Mary is so perfect in popular Catholic theology in Latin America -- perpetually a virgin, although a mother; blameless, even sinless -- Lozano said she becomes an impossible standard of womanhood. Nonetheless, many men look for this standard in the mother of their children.
On the other hand, Lozano noted, Mary's opposite -- the wanton harlot -- is what many men tend to look for in sex partners. Being forced to choose between the two stereotypes can be deadly for women.
"When these [images of Mary and her opposite] are misused, they become oppressive and a source of suffering for women," she said. "Neither one of these models is a good one for women, because they do not present women as complete human beings."
Lozano said that embracing the "life-giving" aspects of Marian veneration can be both healthy for all women and a bridge between Latin American Protestants and Catholics, she contended.
Lozano pointed to two passages dealing with Mary in the Christmas story as recorded in Luke's Gospel: The angel's announcement to Mary that she would bear Christ (Luke 1:26-38), and Mary's song of praise to God, often called the Magnificat (Luke 1:46-55).
Mary is not a passive presence in those stories, Lozano pointed out, but an active and willing participant in God's work who was "well aware of social injustices," she said.
"She is subject with a strong will and a social consciousness," Lozano noted.
Lozano delivered her remarks on the second day of the BWA's Annual Gathering in Ede, Netherlands. Hundreds of Baptists from around the world came to conduct BWA General Council business as well as observe the 400th anniversary of the Baptist movement, which began in the summer of 1609 in nearby Amsterdam.
Have you seen #133?
LOL
Not entirely true ... yes Henry VIII had a hand in it but Tyndale’s writings were considered heretical by both the Catholic Church and the Anglican Church ... both were involved in his arrest, torture and death.
“Where did you get the idea that the reading of the bible was EVER prohibited by the Church? What was prohibited were unauthorized translations of the bible from Latin to local languages and dialects. “
The CC was the one who decided what was and what wasn’t authorized .... nobody else. Lots of interesting reading in Middle Ages history .... and you can research this as easily as I did ...
Quite entirely true.
Henry VIII had already broken with the Catholic Church (1532-4) by the time Tyndale was arrested (1535).
The Catholic Church had condemned Tyndale's Bible because it was a ridiculously bad translation.
Looking for errors in the Tyndale Bible is like looking for water in the ocean. --St. Thomas More
...both were involved in his arrest, torture and death.
Wait just a minute: in your previous post you said he was "burned at the stake by the Catholic Church," but now you're saying the Catholic Church was merely involved?
Be careful when back-pedaling so furiously, you could fall and skin a knee.
Yes, but he'll probably get it right.
Imagine that! A theological organization deciding which documents were in compliance with its teachings. That was a very, very wise position for the Church to have taken.
Let's examine the translation and meaning of the Bible into English as an example. Even with the benefit of 500+ years of reflection and the scrutiny of many linguists, experts in now dead languages, historical scholars, and theologians there is no consensus on many relevant points of scripture and dogma among a literate population. Now imaging how the problems would have been amplified amongst diverse illiterate populations steeped in superstition and suspicion.
To this day European nations are struggling with the issues of regional languages. Spain, for example recognizes Aranese, Catalan, Valencian, Basque and Galician as having co-official in status with Castilian. Add to this Asturo, Leonese, Gascon Occitan, and Mirandese and you can begin to see the problems.
A thousand years ago you would have had local pockets of many unabsorbed colonials with vestiges of the Celtic, Phoenician, Greek, Carthaginian, Roman, Visigoth, Berber and Arab languages, each with similar diversity.
Add to this religious traditions and superstitions that accompanied them and the hundreds of evolved local accents, histories, and dialects which varied village to village or quarter to quarter in cities, each incapable and of communicating many basic theological concepts or describing events and conditions that took place in completely unfamiliar locations, cultures, and languages and you have chaos.
Remember, NYer, that when you are a believer, God’s spirit witnesses to your spirit that you are His own child. I don’t believe for one minute that God’s grace leaves you when you are a believer. If you fall, He will draw you back to the fold. I know we disagree a lot because of our different teachings, but I pray you will trust God on this. Bless you, Mary
God protected His Word. I’m glad He used the Catholic church and will be always grateful for that. That’s why it boggles my mind that you folks don’t use it as your authority as much as you do the church ‘fathers.’
Our pastor, when a young college student, went on a missions trip to Ireland to bring the Word to the Catholics there. The church had kept the Bible from the people themselves for whatever reason.. They distributed Bibles to them. Pretty soon there were Bible studies and people started getting saved. One day he noticed a group of them in a tight circle praying in tongues to a statue of Mary. He said they were beginning to learn and would one day understand that you don’t pray to Mary but to Jesus. It was very interesting, given the conversations we have here. We can trust people with Bibles. We may not always get everything right, but the HS enlightens the passages He wants us to know regarding salvation and living a Christlike life.
Where did you ever get the impression that I wasn't Catholic?
If that is really what your pastor told you he lied......
No, he didn’t lie. It was the truth that most Catholics don’t want to believe.
I assume you ARE Catholic.
The Catholic view of Marry makes it hard to explain Jesus’ brothers and sisters though.
I know many, many Irish Catholics. I have been to Ireland many, many times. I frequently visited former pastor of mine, an Irish Catholic priest who had returned to Ireland after some serious health issues. I know your pastor lied or at least misrepresented the actions of the Church (and so does God).
This took place many years ago and things were different then. Now the Church seems to be better about allowing and even encouraging their parishioners to read the Bible.
The Church purports that Mary remained blessed, not that she remained a Virgin.
If anything, the Irish are less adherent today than "many years ago". Your pastor may have introduced a few wayward Catholics to the bible, but to represent that as the general condition of Ireland and the policy of the Catholic Church puts him on par with the veracity of the Reverends Wright, Sharpton, and Jesse Jackson.
“Ann, the mother of Mary conceived immaculately. This is is common knowledge and is taught by Anglican, ORthodox, Catholic and more traditions.”
From the Catholic Encyclopedia:
“The Blessed Virgin Mary...”
The subject of this immunity from original sin is the person of Mary at the moment of the creation of her soul and its infusion into her body.
“...in the first instance of her conception...”
The term conception does not mean the active or generative conception by her parents. Her body was formed in the womb of the mother, and the father had the usual share in its formation. The question does not concern the immaculateness of the generative activity of her parents. Neither does it concern the passive conception absolutely and simply (conceptio seminis carnis, inchoata), which, according to the order of nature, precedes the infusion of the rational soul. The person is truly conceived when the soul is created and infused into the body. Mary was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin at the first moment of her animation, and sanctifying grace was given to her before sin could have taken effect in her soul.
“...was preserved exempt from all stain of original sin...”
The formal active essence of original sin was not removed from her soul, as it is removed from others by baptism; it was excluded, it never was in her soul. Simultaneously with the exclusion of sin. The state of original sanctity, innocence, and justice, as opposed to original sin, was conferred upon her, by which gift every stain and fault, all depraved emotions, passions, and debilities, essentially pertaining to original sin, were excluded. But she was not made exempt from the temporal penalties of Adam — from sorrow, bodily infirmities, and death.
“...by a singular privilege and grace granted by God, in view of the merits of Jesus Christ, the Saviour of the human race.”
"The personal reading of the Bible to their flock?" There's probably more Bible reading at Mass than at your average Protestant service, since we have an Old Testament reading, a Psalm, an Epistle, and a Gospel at every service. Not to mention that most of the prayers in the Mass are scripturally based.
Plus, anybody who was following one of the popular devotions (the Little Office, the Hours, etc.) was reading Scripture four times a day. Some of us are still doing this and find it very inspiring.
As for Tyndale, printing an unauthorized version of the Bible was the least of his problems.
And everybody's particularly horrified at "burning at the stake", but punishments in those days were savage by modern standards. Burning folks is generally frowned on today, but there was enough ecclesiastical barbeque to go around for all sides in the various disputes. Calvin burned his share, as did the radical English Protestants.
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