The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[annalex]

I don’t mean to distract you from reading the rest of the thread. However, as Caholic, I take the scripture very seriously ans so when the phrasing is not what I would expect to convey the meaning that I expect, I question my assumptions.

[ET(end tyranny)]

The tribulation?

I think its possible that the Tribulation is part of the purification process and no one gets a 'get out of jail free' card, which means I do not find a pre trib rapture to be scriptural. jmo

[BuckeyeTexan]

I’m new to the religion forum. I’ve stayed mostly in political news. So perhaps certain posters have a “history” of adversarial interactions and I am simply unaware of it.

However, I do want to comment on the snide, snarky, antagonistic responses from some, not all, Catholic-defenders on this thread. I’ve noticed that no matter how neutrally a couple of Protestant-defenders attempt to frame a discussion, the response is usually snide.

I’m not specifically refering to either Dr. Eckleburg or annalex. I simply copied them because they brought up the issue.

[BuckeyeTexan]

You're not distracting me. I am enjoying the conversation. I don't know anything about the Catholic faith, but I'm interested. For example, I recently learned that the Catholic Bible is not the same as the Protestant Bible, to which I responded with a verbal gasp. I had no idea.

[annalex]

I enjoy discussing the Holy Scripture and the Holy Tradition with anyone.

[BuckeyeTexan]

The Rapture isn’t scriptural in my opinion. It isn’t the subject of this thread so I won’t go into the details of why I believe it to be unscriptural. I’ll save that for another time.

[BuckeyeTexan]

What’s the Holy Tradition? See, I told you I know nothing.

[bronxville]

“I’m not defending the current apostate church of England. One of the very reasons that church is being corrupted from within is because it no longer holds to the majority of the 39 Articles the reformers founded on Scripture.”

So why did you use #20 of their thirty nine articles as your primary source against Purgatory? Please respond to my questions, made in good faith from your source, on article #22.

BTW, how come they’re good enough to use as a source against Purgatory but not Abortion?

[annalex]

You wouldn't believe how many Catholics would gasp back.

The difference is the seven deuterocanonical books that are a part of the Greek Septuagint but nt a part of the Hebrew Scripture, that were a part of the Christian Bible since it was composed as a single collection of books early in 5c. Luther questioned their inclusion in the canon, and so did St. Jerome; however, Luther ended up removing them altogether while Jerome included them in his translation despite his misgivings. The Council of Trent in 16c responded to the controversy by defining the Christian Canon infallibly to include them. The Orthodox, the Coptic, the Armenians, and all the Churches unaffected by the Reformation include them.

The real controversy is prayer for the dead that the deuterocanonical book of Maccabees describes. That, to Luther, was a proof that our prayers influence the salvation of the dead, and therefore that salvation is a moe complex process than what his theology would allow.

To read the entire Catholic Bible, visit Douay Bible, the oldest word-by-word English translation, or pick any other edition at your Catholic book store.

[ET(end tyranny)]

1 John 1:7 7but if we (A)walk in the Light as (B)He Himself is in the Light, we have fellowship with one another, and (C)the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.

I guess you missed the word IF.... conditional

Titus 2:14 14 who (A)gave Himself for us (B)to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to (C)purify for Himself a (D)people for His own possession, (E)zealous for good deeds.

Seems to be a twisting of:

Isaiah 59 (JPS)
20 And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith YHWH.


Isaiah 59 (NASB)
20   "A (1) Redeemer will come to Zion,  And to those who (2) turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.

cross-references

1. Rom 11:26
2. Ezek 18:30, 31

Romans 11
26   and so all Israel will be saved; just as it is written, "(1) THE DELIVERER WILL COME FROM ZION, HE WILL REMOVE UNGODLINESS FROM JACOB."

cross-references
1. Is 59:20


Ezekiel 18
30   "Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, each according to his conduct," declares the Lord GOD. "(1) Repent and turn away from all your transgressions, so that iniquity may not become a stumbling block to you.
31   "(2) Cast away from you all your transgressions which you have committed and make yourselves a (3) new heart and a new spirit! For why will you die, O house of Israel?

Isaiah 59 (MSG)
20"I'll arrive in Zion as Redeemer, to those in Jacob who leave their sins." GOD's Decree.

Isaiah 59
20He shall come as a Redeemer to Zion and to those in Jacob (Israel) who turn from transgression, says the Lord.


Isaiah 59 (NLT)
20"The Redeemer will come to Jerusalem,[1] " says the LORD, "to buy back those in Israel[2] who have turned from their sins.

Footnotes
1. 59:20a Hebrew to Zion
1. 59:20b Hebrew in Jacob.


Isaiah 59 (KJV)
20   And the Redeemer shall come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith the LORD.


Isaiah 59 (HNV)
20A Redeemer will come to Tziyon, and to those who turn from disobedience in Ya`akov, says the LORD.


Isaiah 59 (RSV)
20"And he will come to Zion as Redeemer, to those in Jacob who turn from transgression, says the LORD.

Notice how your verse is the opposite and has the Redeemer removing lawlessness instead of people taking responsibility for their own actions by turning away from transgression.

Hebrews 9:14 14 how much more will (A)the blood of Christ, who through (B)the eternal Spirit (C)offered Himself without blemish to God, (D)cleanse your conscience from (E)dead works to serve (F)the living God?

Unblemished? Really?

Leviticus 22
24   Ye shall not offer unto the LORD that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make any offering thereof in your land.

Leviticus 22
(22) Blind, or broken, or maimed, or having a wen, or scabbed, or scurvy, ye shall not offer these unto YHWH, nor make an offering by fire of them upon the altar unto YHWH.

Matthew 27  (as well as Mark 15:15, John 19:1)
26   Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

[annalex]

The Catholic teaching — as well as historical fact — is that the deposit of Faith was delivered to the Holy Apostles prior to the books of the New Testament were written. St Jude speaks of it: “concerning your common salvation, [...] contend earnestly for the faith once delivered to the saints” (Jude 1:3).

The Apostles initially taught orally, resorting to teaching by letter when they could not meet the audience face to face, and in 2 Thess. 2:14 plainly says that the tradition that he teaches has the same weight as the written word. Obviously, we are not talking of customs and ceremonial culture here but of the historical, apostolic method of interpreting the scripture, prayers, hymnody and iconography that together with the Scripture shape our faith since the times of the Early Church.

[ET(end tyranny)]

The Apostles initially taught orally, resorting to teaching by letter when they could not meet the audience face to face, and in 2 Thess. 2:14 plainly says that the tradition that he teaches has the same weight as the written word. Obviously, we are not talking of customs and ceremonial culture here but of the historical, apostolic method of interpreting the scripture, prayers, hymnody and iconography that together with the Scripture shape our faith since the times of the Early Church.

Keeping in mind that the only Scriptures that existed at the time were the Jewish Scriptures that Jesus taught.

[bronxville]

“However, I do want to comment on the snide, snarky, antagonistic responses from some, not all, Catholic-defenders on this thread. I’ve noticed that no matter how neutrally a couple of Protestant-defenders attempt to frame a discussion, the response is usually snide.”

Considering you’ve a;ready responded to a few threads supporting the position of Dr Ecklburg et al - - one can’t be surprised at your observation as it appears to be anything but neutral.

“Purgatory” is simply a man-made concept to promote the Catholic Church’s position far earlier in her history for getting scared people to pay the church to get their way out of Purgatory.”

“Yep. Mysticism, tyranny and superstition. Same old/same old.”

“Flee from idolatry, Alex. Rome teaches dread.”

“Such is the length Rome goes to in order to cower its members into submission.”

“Purgatory is not based upon Scripture, and it is an ungodly doctrine.”

You actually wrote a post complimenting a poster who included the last quote in her post. Sorry, but your observations don’t mean much and, in fact, are an involved participant for the “Protestant-defenders”.

[DoorGunner]

There are around fifty "repentance" verses in the New Testament, also. Obviously, "turning away from sin" is still a precursor to being washed n the Blood.

Acts 2

 38Peter said to them, "(AY)Repent, and each of you be (AZ)baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

Acts 22

 16'Now why do you delay? (AG)Get up and be baptized, and (AH)wash away your sins, (AI)calling on His name.'

Leviticus 22
24   Ye shall not offer unto the LORD that which is bruised, or crushed, or broken, or cut; neither shall ye make any offering thereof in your land.

Leviticus 22
(22) Blind, or broken, or maimed, or having a wen, or scabbed, or scurvy, ye shall not offer these unto YHWH, nor make an offering by fire of them upon the altar unto YHWH.

Matthew 27  (as well as Mark 15:15, John 19:1)
26   Then released he Barabbas unto them: and when he had scourged Jesus, he delivered him to be crucified.

The lamb, of course, was perfect UNTIL it was sacrificed. It obviously was "cut" when it was killed. Thus, also Yeshua was without blemish, UNTIL he was damaged in the process of being sacrificed.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Jesus' message was to repent. That is why He was sent.

The scourging came before the sacrificing. Not to mention

Leviticus 17
11   For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul.

The Gospels indicate Jesus' blood was not shed to a degree that would make blood loss from the body the exclusive cause of death. Death solely by blood loss is the only biblical cause acceptable for an animal's sacrificial death.

[DoorGunner]

casuistry
Noun
reasoning that is misleading or oversubtle [Latin casus case]

[ET(end tyranny)]

yeah whatever! lol

[BuckeyeTexan]

I never claimed to be neutral. I am a Protestant. I do not believe the scriptures support the concept of Purgatory. However, because I am interested in why Catholics believe in Purgatory, I am reviewing the document posted and the evidence presented in it and comparing the assertions made to what the scriptures say.

That said, I also didn’t claim that every Protestant-defender on this thread was neutral. I had two specific P-d ‘s in mind, which was why I said “a couple.”

You act as if I tried to hide my beliefs and pretend that I am neutral between C-d’s and P-d’s. I did no such thing.

If my observations mean nothing to you, ignore them. To be clear, I was addressing the issue with the thread owner and not calling out anyone in particular. The fact that you responded and the tone that you used tells me that you felt personally accused. Nothing could be further from the truth.

Furthermore, the “comment “Indeed, sir” is not a compliment and wasn’t intended as such.

[BuckeyeTexan]

One more point about the “Indeed, sir.” Picture a stuffy old proper Brit looking down his nose over his glasses and saying it to an impertinent man many years his junior. Then you’ll get the gist.

(I’m not British or old, BTW)

[Jmouse007]

Context! This passage has NOTHING WHATSOEVER to do with the fictional Roman Catholic "doctrine" of "purgatory". The passage is dealing with the Jews/the nation of Israel and with their persecution in the last days. Two thirds of them will be killed/wiped out by the persecution unleashed by the Antichrist, but a remnant, 1/3rd will be spared.

The Lord Jesus Christ in Luke 16:19 - 31 clearly says there is no such thing or place as "purgatory" only paradise or hell and ONCE YOU ARE THERE(whichever place you find yourself)THERE IS NO GETTING OUT, NO ESCAPE and NO going from either place to the other, PERIOD and there is no in-between place called "purgatory".

Purgatory is nothing but false, heretical, fiction designed to fill the coffers of the Roman Catholic "church" by duping it's followers into giving it money to supposedly buy loved ones out of the fictional cleansing/suffering fires of purgatory.

God's Word is clear, everyone who has put their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ as their personal Lord and savior and called upon His name and Him alone to save them from ALL of their sin HAVE BEEN and ARE saved from the penalty of ALL of their sin. They are positionally IN CHRIST: (5 Corinthians 5:17); There is no need for a fictional purgatory because they HAVE BEEN JUSTIFIED and HAVE PEACE with God and are no longer condemned by God:

"Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ" (Romans 5:1)

They are NO LONGER CONDEMNED by God:

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus." Romans 8:1

They POSESS ETERNAL LIFE: John 10:27-30; 1John 5:11 - 13; NO ONE CAN EVER BRING A CHARGE AGAINST THEM and NOTHING CAN EVER SEPERATE THEM FROM THE LOVE OF GOD: Romans 8:33 - 39.

God's Word is clear, there is no purgatory only heaven or hell and the only way to escape the pangs of hell is to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, to call upon the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and to receive/accept Him as one's savior, trusting in Him and in Him alone, totally apart from any personal merit or "good works" to save us: John 1:12; John 3:14 - 18; Acts 16:30 - 31; Romans 10:13; Ephesians 2:8 - 9.