The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[bdeaner]

I would like to request your kind compliance with my request to feel free to post both critical and supportive comments on this article, but to do so with an ecumenical spirit and in a warm, respectful attitude, with the assumption that all parties have a common and sincere aim of arriving at the Truth. Thank you, and God bless.

To put this post in context, the notion of purgatory has been raised in debates among Christians of Catholic and Protestant perspectives on various threads, but the debates have been somewhat unrelated, or only tangentially related to the original topic of the threads. I've posted this description of Catholic doctrine on Purgatory to both clarify how Catholics understand Purgatory and to invite continued, respectful and ecumenical dialogue on the topic, for the benefit of all. Have fun.

[skr]

ping for later

[TheBattman]

Someone please give me the specific scripture verse (or verses) that give the doctrine of “Purgatory”.

The very verse given by the author simply supporting that all souls that enter Heaven (into the presence of the Holy and Perfect God) must be cleansed - that is the work of Jesus Christ’s propitiation on the Cross (His blood paid the price for our sins, cleansing us from that sin - though the final cleansing happens when our spirit leaves this shell of a body)

“Purgatory” is simply a man-made concept to promote the Catholic Church’s position far earlier in her history for getting scared people to pay the church to get their way out of Purgatory.

[Steelfish]

Very informative post- Thanks

[guitarplayer1953]

Amen

[ET(end tyranny)]

Someone please give me the specific scripture verse (or verses) that give the doctrine of “Purgatory”.

Zechariah 13 (JPS Divine Name Restored)
(8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith YHWH, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. (9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say: 'It is My people', and they shall say: 'YHWH is my God.'

I believe the fire is the cleansing/purification.

[zorro8987]

Thank you for posting this. Very interesting.

Someone said, “Please give the specific Scripture reference for the doctrine of purgatory” — There are a couple of Scripture references in the article itself, if one reads it carefully. Granted, they are rather indirect, maybe (?).

I especially enjoyed the historical stuff and especially the part about the catacombs.

[zorro8987]

I thought of another Scripture reference.

Luk 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not [himself], neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many [stripes].

Luk 12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few [stripes]. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

blueletterbible.org

I’m not saying it definitely proves it; I’m just saying, it seems to be at least indirectly related to this.

[zorro8987]

a related topic:

the book “The Great Divorce” by CS Lewis would be great related reading; as would certain essays by George MacDonald.

[bdeaner]

May I suggest you read the article before posting a criticism? Your request for scripture was addressed in the posted article by the author.

2 Mac 12:42-46
Mt 12:32
1 Cor. 3:13,15

You won't find the word "purgatory" in these verses, any more than you will find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, but that doesn't make the doctrine of Purgatory false, no more than the absence of the word "Trinity" makes the Trinity a false doctrine, which of course its not, as I'm sure you agree.

Also, as the article mentioned, the early Church fathers believed in Purgatory long before the abuse of indulgences in the Middle Ages -- the abuses that eventually triggered the Reformation. So, that criticism is not valid, because it's based on an anachronism.

With that said, I appreciate your reply and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Should be an interesting discussion. God bless.

[bdeaner]

You’re welcome!

[bdeaner]

Purgatory ping!

[boatbums]

This is highly slanted to the Roman Catholic Church's view. It bears repeating from an earlier post:

If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of ALL sin, it must mean our past, present and future sins - since we did not exist when he was crucified - are paid in full. Why must there be something more that must be done to be sanctified? Somehow, our sufferings, no matter how long they last, can be placed alongside Christ's sufferings as equal? Can you not see the error in that thinking?

The very concept of a need for purgatory, meaning a place of purgation or cleansing, is totally rebutted by hundreds of Scriptures that state the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. The very idea that the sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross was somehow insufficient, or not quite enough, for our salvation is a complete contradiction of the Gospel. He alone is the propitiation (satisfactory payment) for our sins, mortal or venial or whatever - all sins.

It boils down to the basics - are we saved by grace or works? Because it CANNOT be both (see Romans 11:6).

Respectfully.

[bdeaner]

Zechariah 13 is another good verse to support the doctrine of Purgatory.

[annalex]

The concept of nothing impure entering Heaven is one indirect prooftext of Purgatory; the phrasing in the discourse on some sins being not pardonable even in the life to come (Mt 12:32) would make no sense unless there are sins that are forgiven only in the life to come. Also, the parable of the unmerciful debtor depicts a punishment for sin that is temporal, "until the last farthing is paid".

But none of that would be decisive if it were not for 1 Cor 3, where a man is likened to a building which stands on the foundation of Christ. Such man is saved, but not until the imperfections in his soul are burned off. Note that this purification doesn't start till all his works are "made manifest", hence after his death. This is the idea of purgatory in its essence: the temporary place state of purification of a soul whose sins have already been forgiven through the superabundant merit of Christ.

Here is this passage in Douay translation:

8 ...And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. 9 For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

(1 Cor. 3)

The explanation that Protestants give is that the passage speaks of extra rewards that some of the elect get according to their good works, in addition to justification given for their faith, but that is merely reformulating the same doctrine in terms of losing a reward rather than suffering through purification. No matter how we call this state, it is clear that it is a state that follows natural death, involves some kind of suffering, available to the saved only, and has purification (removal of base material) as its end.

[Mr Rogers]

Yes, but it is 10:18 here in Arizona, and I’m ready for bed. In 7 1/2 hours, both dogs and horses will be asking for food, and neither worries about Purgatory.

Good Night, bdeaner!

[boatbums]

This quote is quite obviously speaking of the nation of Israel in the last days. Otherwise, you imply that only 1/3 of mankind in all of history will be saved and go to heaven.

[Mr Rogers]

“...but not until the imperfections in his soul are burned off”

You do not find that in 1 Corinthians 3!

[bdeaner]

Good one!

[bdeaner]

Sometimes I wish I were a dog or horse so I didn’t have to worry about Purgatory! LOL. This thread isn’t going anywhere anytime soon — plenty of time for conversation tomorrow or the next day. Goodnight!