[TheBattman]

Someone please give me the specific scripture verse (or verses) that give the doctrine of “Purgatory”.

The very verse given by the author simply supporting that all souls that enter Heaven (into the presence of the Holy and Perfect God) must be cleansed - that is the work of Jesus Christ’s propitiation on the Cross (His blood paid the price for our sins, cleansing us from that sin - though the final cleansing happens when our spirit leaves this shell of a body)

“Purgatory” is simply a man-made concept to promote the Catholic Church’s position far earlier in her history for getting scared people to pay the church to get their way out of Purgatory.

[guitarplayer1953]

Amen

[ET(end tyranny)]

Someone please give me the specific scripture verse (or verses) that give the doctrine of “Purgatory”.

Zechariah 13 (JPS Divine Name Restored)
(8) And it shall come to pass, that in all the land, saith YHWH, two parts therein shall be cut off and die; but the third shall be left therein. (9) And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried; they shall call on My name, and I will answer them; I will say: 'It is My people', and they shall say: 'YHWH is my God.'

I believe the fire is the cleansing/purification.

[bdeaner]

May I suggest you read the article before posting a criticism? Your request for scripture was addressed in the posted article by the author.

2 Mac 12:42-46
Mt 12:32
1 Cor. 3:13,15

You won't find the word "purgatory" in these verses, any more than you will find the word "Trinity" in the Bible, but that doesn't make the doctrine of Purgatory false, no more than the absence of the word "Trinity" makes the Trinity a false doctrine, which of course its not, as I'm sure you agree.

Also, as the article mentioned, the early Church fathers believed in Purgatory long before the abuse of indulgences in the Middle Ages -- the abuses that eventually triggered the Reformation. So, that criticism is not valid, because it's based on an anachronism.

With that said, I appreciate your reply and thank you for sharing your thoughts. Should be an interesting discussion. God bless.

[annalex]

The concept of nothing impure entering Heaven is one indirect prooftext of Purgatory; the phrasing in the discourse on some sins being not pardonable even in the life to come (Mt 12:32) would make no sense unless there are sins that are forgiven only in the life to come. Also, the parable of the unmerciful debtor depicts a punishment for sin that is temporal, "until the last farthing is paid".

But none of that would be decisive if it were not for 1 Cor 3, where a man is likened to a building which stands on the foundation of Christ. Such man is saved, but not until the imperfections in his soul are burned off. Note that this purification doesn't start till all his works are "made manifest", hence after his death. This is the idea of purgatory in its essence: the temporary place state of purification of a soul whose sins have already been forgiven through the superabundant merit of Christ.

Here is this passage in Douay translation:

8 ...And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour. 9 For we are God's coadjutors: you are God's husbandry; you are God's building. 10 According to the grace of God that is given to me, as a wise architect, I have laid the foundation; and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.

11 For other foundation no man can lay, but that which is laid; which is Christ Jesus. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation, gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble: 13 Every man's work shall be manifest; for the day of the Lord shall declare it, because it shall be revealed in fire; and the fire shall try every man's work, of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide, which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work burn, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

(1 Cor. 3)

The explanation that Protestants give is that the passage speaks of extra rewards that some of the elect get according to their good works, in addition to justification given for their faith, but that is merely reformulating the same doctrine in terms of losing a reward rather than suffering through purification. No matter how we call this state, it is clear that it is a state that follows natural death, involves some kind of suffering, available to the saved only, and has purification (removal of base material) as its end.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

"Purgatory" is simply a man-made concept to promote the Catholic Church's position far earlier in her history for getting scared people to pay the church to get their way out of Purgatory.

Yep. Mysticism, tyranny and superstition. Same old/same old.

"The Romish doctrine concerning Purgatory...is a fond thing vainly invented, and grounded upon no warranty of Scripture; but rather repugnant to the word of God" (Article 22 of the Thirty-Nine Articles of the Church of England produced during the English Reformation)

[Kansas58]

If Purgatory is “Man Made” in concept and reality -— Why then does Maccabees clearly show that thee Jewish people prayed for the dead?

As stated in the original post, Maccabees is an historical text, even if you do not include it in the Protestant Bible.

Jesus, himself, prayed for Lazarus, did he not?

Furthermore, the Deuterocannical Books, including Maccabees, were most surely present in the Temples, when Jesus, himself, visited the Temples.

Jesus never spoke against those Books, which are accepted by Catholics and the Eastern Orthodox.

The early Church CLEARLY believed that there was a purgatory.

Biblical quotes were given, in this post, which CLEARLY show that those who are bound, eventually, for Heaven, might not go there directly.

Yes, the Catholic Church is the one of the oldest institution in the world, other than the Jewish Faith and a few other religions.

The Catholic Church is, without a doubt, the oldest CHRISTIAN Faith.

And nobody, until Martin Luther, really objected to the notion of praying for the dead.

Luther was a “results oriented” person. Luther wanted the abuse of indulgences to stop, so Luther “Reformed” Scripture by removing anything that would support the idea of purgatory or any prayer for the dead.

Look at it this way, Protestants:

You insist that ALL Christian belief MUST come from the Bible and the Bible alone.

However, there is NOTHING in the Bible that would, in any way, DISPROVE purgatory.

There are a few verses, even in a Protestant Bible, that would seem to support purgatory.

Most importantly, there is NOTHING in the Bible which states that all faith must come from the Bible.

Protestants seem to forget that St. Paul and St. Peter and the other Apostles were not always in agreement with each other. It is not possible for any one person to know precisely what might come, in the afterlife, for ourselves or anyone else. It is nothing short of bizarre to be so steadfast and certain in your Biblical interpretations, against the idea of purgatory, when it is CLEAR that the early Christians would not accept your interpretations.

If those Christians who died in the early 1st and 2nd Centuries obviously provoked prayers, on their behalf, from the faithful, is it not a bit arrogant for us to decide, 2,000 years later, that those who might well have actually met Jesus, or an Apostle, were less aware of His teachings than any of us?

Pride, itself, is a deadly sin.

I fully realize that the Catholic Church has made some huge mistakes, through out history. I also believe that the Catholics and the Orthodox, the two OLDEST Christian faiths, are far closer to the truth than others.

One other thing:

Those of you who are such literalists:

“For thine is the Kingdom the Power and the Glory” was never said by Jesus. These are the “gloss” or the notes of a Catholic Monk, in the margins of a parchment.

“This is my body, This is my Blood” are two things Catholic DO take literally, and many Protestants do not.

Also, the first Miracle of Jesus was to turn water into wine, at the Wedding at Canna, and the last miracle of Jesus, in the Flesh, was to change wine into his own Blood, at the last supper.

“Do this in memory of me” means that we are also to partake of his Body and Blood.

Many Protestants avoid this literal interpretation, as well.

My point?

You are literal when it suits you, and you avoid the obvious, when that suits you. Such is faith, for all of us, I suppose.

“Peter, you are rock, and upon this Rock I will build my Church, whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, whatsoever you loose on Earth, shall be loosed in Heaven”

It would appear that “build” means Jesus STARTED with Peter, and that Jesus recognized the need for a final authority, for the Church, here on Earth.

It would also appear that Jesus gave Peter, a HUMAN, and a leader of the CHRISTIAN Church, the full POWER to INVENT Purgatory, even if none had existed, prior to the moment that Jesus appointed Peter the first Pope.

No other explanation of the direct words of Jesus makes any sense.

And if Peter can make laws that apply in Heaven -—why not the successors to St. Peter?

More to the point, if Peter believed in Purgatory, guess what? Purgatory EXISTS, by the very promise of Jesus.

Can you prove that Peter did NOT believe in Purgatory?

Can you explain why the Catholic Church, which has custody of the body of St. Peter and St. Paul, could possibly believe in Purgatory, for its ENTIRE history?

Could you explain why not one single council of the Catholic Church or the Orthodox Church shows any disagreement on the topic of Purgatory? How could they be so wrong, from the very beginning?

And again, can you explain why Jesus prayed in Jewish Temples which contained the the Books of Maccabees and He never repudiated their obvious support of prayers for the dead?

Anyway, again, Martin Luther hated indulgences. Therefore, Luther made sure that Scripture could not support Purgatory, as a way to attack indulgences.

Martin Luther changed Scripture, but he did not have the power to change history.

The Jews at the time of Jesus believed in prayer for the dead.

[bdeaner]

More Scripture on Purgatory from ,a href="http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html">Scripture Catholic

Note: I would recommend going back and reading these in their original context before drawing any conclusions. But here they are for your reference.

I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness

Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.

Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.

Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.

Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.

Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.

1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.

Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.

2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.

Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.

Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.

1 Peter 3:19; 4:6 - Jesus preached to the spirits in the "prison." These are the righteous souls being purified for the beatific vision.

Rev. 21:4 - God shall wipe away their tears, and there will be no mourning or pain, but only after the coming of the new heaven and the passing away of the current heaven and earth. Note the elimination of tears and pain only occurs at the end of time. But there is no morning or pain in heaven, and God will not wipe away their tears in hell. These are the souls experiencing purgatory.

Rev. 21:27 - nothing unclean shall enter heaven. The word “unclean” comes from the Greek word “koinon” which refers to a spiritual corruption. Even the propensity to sin is spiritually corrupt, or considered unclean, and must be purified before entering heaven. It is amazing how many Protestants do not want to believe in purgatory. Purgatory exists because of the mercy of God. If there were no purgatory, this would also likely mean no salvation for most people. God is merciful indeed.

Luke 23:43 – many Protestants argue that, because Jesus sent the good thief right to heaven, there can be no purgatory. There are several rebuttals. First, when Jesus uses the word "paradise,” He did not mean heaven. Paradise, from the Hebrew "sheol," meant the realm of the righteous dead. This was the place of the dead who were destined for heaven, but who were captive until the Lord's resurrection. Second, since there was no punctuation in the original manuscript, Jesus’ statement “I say to you today you will be with me in paradise” does not mean there was a comma after the first word “you.” This means Jesus could have said, “I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise” (meaning, Jesus could have emphasized with exclamation his statement was “today” or “now,” and that some time in the future the good thief would go to heaven). Third, even if the thief went straight to heaven, this does not prove there is no purgatory (those who are fully sanctified in this life – perhaps by a bloody and repentant death – could be ready for admission in to heaven).

Gen. 50:10; Num. 20:29; Deut. 34:8 - here are some examples of ritual prayer and penitent mourning for the dead for specific periods of time. The Jewish understanding of these practices was that the prayers freed the souls from their painful state of purification, and expedited their journey to God.

Baruch 3:4 - Baruch asks the Lord to hear the prayers of the dead of Israel. Prayers for the dead are unnecessary in heaven and unnecessary in hell. These dead are in purgatory.

Zech. 9:11 - God, through the blood of His covenant, will set those free from the waterless pit, a spiritual abode of suffering which the Church calls purgatory.

2 Macc. 12:43-45 - the prayers for the dead help free them from sin and help them to the reward of heaven. Those in heaven have no sin, and those in hell can no longer be freed from sin. They are in purgatory. Luther was particularly troubled with these verses because he rejected the age-old teaching of purgatory. As a result, he removed Maccabees from the canon of the Bible.

II. Purification After Death By Fire

Heb. 12:29 - God is a consuming fire (of love in heaven, of purgation in purgatory, or of suffering and damnation in hell).

1 Cor. 3:10-15 - works are judged after death and tested by fire. Some works are lost, but the person is still saved. Paul is referring to the state of purgation called purgatory. The venial sins (bad works) that were committed are burned up after death, but the person is still brought to salvation. This state after death cannot be heaven (no one with venial sins is present) or hell (there is no forgiveness and salvation).

1 Cor. 3:15 – “if any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” The phrase for "suffer loss" in the Greek is "zemiothesetai." The root word is "zemioo" which also refers to punishment. The construction “zemiothesetai” is used in Ex. 21:22 and Prov. 19:19 which refers to punishment (from the Hebrew “anash” meaning “punish” or “penalty”). Hence, this verse proves that there is an expiation of temporal punishment after our death, but the person is still saved. This cannot mean heaven (there is no punishment in heaven) and this cannot mean hell (the possibility of expiation no longer exists and the person is not saved).

1 Cor. 3:15 – further, Paul writes “he himself will be saved, "but only" (or “yet so”) as through fire.” “He will be saved” in the Greek is “sothesetai” (which means eternal salvation). The phrase "but only" (or “yet so”) in the Greek is "houtos" which means "in the same manner." This means that man is both eternally rewarded and eternally saved in the same manner by fire.

1 Cor. 3:13 - when Paul writes about God revealing the quality of each man's work by fire and purifying him, this purification relates to his sins (not just his good works). Protestants, in attempting to disprove the reality of purgatory, argue that Paul was only writing about rewarding good works, and not punishing sins (because punishing and purifying a man from sins would be admitting that there is a purgatory).

1 Cor. 3:17 - but this verse proves that the purgation after death deals with punishing sin. That is, destroying God's temple is a bad work, which is a mortal sin, which leads to death. 1 Cor. 3:14,15,17 - purgatory thus reveals the state of righteousness (v.14), state of venial sin (v.15) and the state of mortal sin (v.17), all of which are judged after death.

1 Peter 1:6-7 - Peter refers to this purgatorial fire to test the fruits of our faith.

Jude 1:23 - the people who are saved are being snatched out of the fire. People are already saved if they are in heaven, and there is no possibility of salvation if they are in hell. These people are being led to heaven from purgatory.

Rev. 3:18-19 - Jesus refers to this fire as what refines into gold those He loves if they repent of their sins. This is in the context of after death because Jesus, speaking from heaven, awards the white garment of salvation after the purgation of fire (both after death).

Dan 12:10 - Daniel refers to this refining by saying many shall purify themselves, make themselves white and be refined.

Wis. 3:5-6 - the dead are disciplined and tested by fire to receive their heavenly reward. This is the fire of purgatory.

Sirach 2:5 - for gold is tested in the fire, and acceptable men in the furnace of humiliation.

Zech. 13:8-9 - God says 2/3 shall perish, and 1/3 shall be left alive, put into the fire, and refined like silver and tested like gold. The ones that perish go to hell, and there is no need for refinement in heaven, so those being refined are in purgatory.

Mal. 3:2-3 - also refers to God's purification of the righteous at their death.

[Kansas58]

There are also certain passages in the New Testament that the Church commonly cites as containing evidence of the existence of purgatory. In the Gospel of Matthew, Christ warns the Pharisees that anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be forgiven either in this world or in the next (Mt. 12:32). Here Christ recognizes that there exists a state beyond this world in which the penalty due for sins, which were pardoned as to guilt in the world, is forgiven. St. Paul also affirms the reality of purgatory. In his first letter to the Corinthians, he says that “the fire will assay the quality of everyone’s work,” and “if his work burns he will lose his reward, but himself will be saved, yet so as through fire” (1 Cor 3:13, 15). These words clearly imply some penal suffering. Since he connects it so closely with the divine judgment, it can hardly be limited to suffering in this world, but seems to include the idea of purification through suffering after death, namely in purgatory.

[Salvation]

Your scripturural references are in some of the links in this list.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2297210/posts?page=44#44

[Scythian]

Here are the only versus I have read that remind me of purgatory.

Luke 12:54-59

He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Restated in Matthew 5:23-26

"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.