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To: bdeaner
This is highly slanted to the Roman Catholic Church's view. It bears repeating from an earlier post:

If the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us of ALL sin, it must mean our past, present and future sins - since we did not exist when he was crucified - are paid in full. Why must there be something more that must be done to be sanctified? Somehow, our sufferings, no matter how long they last, can be placed alongside Christ's sufferings as equal? Can you not see the error in that thinking?

The very concept of a need for purgatory, meaning a place of purgation or cleansing, is totally rebutted by hundreds of Scriptures that state the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from ALL sin. The very idea that the sacrifice of the Son of God on the cross was somehow insufficient, or not quite enough, for our salvation is a complete contradiction of the Gospel. He alone is the propitiation (satisfactory payment) for our sins, mortal or venial or whatever - all sins.

It boils down to the basics - are we saved by grace or works? Because it CANNOT be both (see Romans 11:6).

Respectfully.

13 posted on 07/20/2009 10:18:03 PM PDT by boatbums (Pro-woman, pro-child, pro-life!)
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To: boatbums
Somehow, our sufferings, no matter how long they last, can be placed alongside Christ's sufferings as equal? Can you not see the error in that thinking?

What error? Christ did call us to take up the Cross. St. Paul taught the exact same thing you call "error":

[I] now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up those things that are wanting of the sufferings of Christ, in my flesh, for his body, which is the church: Whereof I am made a minister ... ( Col. 1:24f)

It is the Catholic teaching that salvation is by grace alone, as Romans 11:6 (and Eph. 2:8-10, and many others) teach. But it is not the Catholic teaching that salvation is by faith alone, which is dead without good works (James 2). At any rate, the doctrine of Purgatory is not about who is and who is not saved: the souls in Purgatory are all saved, by the grace of Christ.

21 posted on 07/20/2009 10:31:53 PM PDT by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: boatbums
Actually, Martin Luther contorted Scripture a bit on the “Grace” and the “Works” issue.

No honest translation of the Greek texts that Luther tried to use, in his doctrine, supports the final translation that Luther or the Protestant Reformation came up with.

Again, Luther decided what he wanted, and then Luther altered Scripture to support Luther's views.

35 posted on 07/20/2009 11:17:43 PM PDT by Kansas58
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To: boatbums
It boils down to the basics - are we saved by grace or works? Because it CANNOT be both (see Romans 11:6).

If your interpretation of Romans 11:6 were true--and I believe it is in error--it would directly contradiction James 2 (see below). How do you reconcile your interpretation of Romans 11:6 with James 2:14-26?

James 2: 14-26:


21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, offering up Isaac his son upon the altar? 22 Seest thou, that faith did co-operate with his works; and by works faith was made perfect? 23 And the scripture was fulfilled, saying: Abraham believed God, and it was reputed to him to justice, and he was called the friend of God. 24 Do you see that by works a man is justified; and not by faith only? 25 And in like manner also Rahab the harlot, was not she justified by works, receiving the messengers, and sending them out another way?

26 For even as the body without the spirit is dead; so also faith without works is dead.


How you resolve this issue will help me understand your soteriology better, so that I can contrast and comparing it with Catholic soteriology on grace and its relationship to faith and works.
109 posted on 07/21/2009 12:39:44 PM PDT by bdeaner (The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? (1 Cor. 10:16))
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To: boatbums

Amen, boatbums.


176 posted on 07/21/2009 8:35:01 PM PDT by Marysecretary (GOD IS STILL IN CONTROL!)
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