Posted on 07/11/2009 6:11:46 AM PDT by GonzoII
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Every other Catholic on here says it takes 3 years to go thru the bible in a Catholic church...
How do you read and understand the following:shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
Exodus 15:2
"YHvH is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation;
This is my God, and I will praise Him;
My father's God, and I will extol Him.Psalms 118:14
YHvH is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation.Psalms 118:21
I shall give thanks to You, for You have answered me,
And You have become my salvation.Isaiah 12:2
"Behold, God is my salvation,
I will trust and not be afraid;
For YHvH Elohim is my strength and song,
And He has become my salvation."
Every other Catholic on here says it takes 3 years to go thru the bible in a Catholic church...
It takes a Jew one year to read the Pentateuch. A year to read just the Torah. They must be really really quick.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
There are so many false statements in what you are saying that I frankly don’t know where to begin. First, though, Catholicism is most certainly a denomination. There are NO Catholics in the earliest Church in the Bible. NONE. They were Jewish followers of Christ for the most part - although there were some Gentiles. Nowhere does Christ refer to the Church as anything but believers in Him - i.e. those who have accepted His Gospel, i.e. his Sheep. (”I know my sheep and they follow me.” John 10:27) While I know the old argument that the Catholic Church uses to try to establish themselves as the “True” or “First” Church, it is set on very shaky ground. A cursory glance through the NT does not support the idea that Peter was the first Pope, nor that Catholicism with its “extra-Biblical” dogmas and creeds the first/true Church. Christ never set up denominations.
I am not a member of a sect, and frankly I am deeply concerned that many Catholics (and perhaps members of other denominations) are counting on a Church to save them. Dangerous territory indeed. Check out John 3:16, and again throughout Scripture where the Gospel is presented plainly: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6. There is no addendum to that Scripture which states “and the Catholic Church”. NONE. It is Christ alone. Any other “Gospel” is heresy - as is stated throughout the Bible. But again, you must understand that the Scriptures trump any creeds, dogma, doctrine, or statements that are extra-Biblical.
As for your complete misunderstanding of the SBC, I can only say that you have been woefully misinformed. No pastor that I have ever met, no official SBC spokesperson, etc... condones/supports abortion. (By the way, your reference to SBC “Parishes” is incorrect as there is no such thing. Parishes are a Catholic set-up. SBC churches are loosely affiliated within the Southern Baptist Convention. They are not “owned” by the SBC in any way. They also do not preach murder.) Where are you getting your information?? Clearly not from a reliable source, I’m afraid.
My point about not relying on a denomination for salvation stands. You seem to be doing it - and I fear for you as I would anyone else who believes that membership in a particular body will buy their way into Heaven. It will not - and that is clearly delineated in Scripture as well. Anyone denying Scripture does so at their peril. You seem to have deliberately misunderstood my point, so I will repeat it here: While one cannot know who will and won’t be saved (God alone draws His own to Him), to believe that one is not going to be saved unless one is a member of a particular denomination is not supported in Scripture. Nor is the flip side of that coin: that one will be saved by membership in a particular body. Remember that Christ warned the Jewish leaders who claimed their birthright and leadership in the Jewish faith as reason for salvation. He reminded them that God could make followers from stones. They were not special nor forgiven because they were members of a particular faith or because of their Jewish “birthright”. Again, Scripture bears this out.
I pray you will seek the Truth and not trust your salvation to membership in a particular Church.
You wrote:
“Bodies can be added to your religion but souls can’t...Your visible church is physical...The spiritual church is invisible...”
Actually they’re one in the same. The Apostles were physical men, not just souls. He sent them - body and soul - into the world. They were the Church.
Galatians 3:27, “For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.”
Romans 6:3 “Or do you not know, that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?”
Romans 8:1 says, “There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit.”
Ephesians 1:7 says, “In Him we have redemption, through His blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace.”
2 Corinthians 5:17, “Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation: old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.”
Romans 6:3-4 says, “Or do you not know, that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death? Therefore, we were buried with Him through baptism into death: that just as Christ Jesus was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
In John 3:3 Jesus told Nicodemus, “Unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.” Then two verses later in John 3:5, Jesus tells how being born again takes place: “Unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
2 Timothy 2:10, “Therefore I endure all things for the sake of the elect, that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus, with eternal glory.”
1 John 5:11 we read, “And this is the testimony, that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.”
1140. What is baptism?
Baptism is the sacrament of spiritual rebirth. Through the symbolic action of washing with water and the use of appropriate ritual words, the baptized person is cleansed of all his sins and incorporated into Christ. It was foretold in Ezekiel, “I shall pour clean water over you and you will be cleansed; I shall cleanse you of all your defilement and all your idols. I shall give you a new heart, and put a new spirit in you” (Ezekiel 36:25-26).
1151. What are the effects of baptism?
The effects of baptism are the removal of the guilt of sin and all punishment due to sin, conferral of the grace of regeneration and the infused virtues, incorporation into Christ and his Church, receiving the baptismal character and the right to heaven.
1157. How does baptism incorporate us into Christ?
By baptism we become members of Christ’s Mystical Body, which is the Church. That is why “By the sacrament of baptism, whenever it is properly conferred in the way the Lord determined and received with the proper dispositions of soul, man becomes truly incorporated into the crucified and glorified Christ and is reborn to a sharing of the divine life, as the apostle says: ‘For you were buried together with him in baptism, and in him also rose again through faith in the working of God who raised him from the dead’ (Romans 6:4)” (Second Vatican Council, Decree on Ecumenism, 22) (John Hardon, The Question and Answer Catholic Catechism (Garden: Image, 1981).
And as someone relied on the CCC:
We are incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ
1267 Baptism makes us members of the Body of Christ: “Therefore . . . we are members one of another.” Baptism incorporates us into the Church. From the baptismal fonts is born the one People of God of the New Covenant, which transcends all the natural or human limits of nations, cultures, races, and sexes: “For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body.”
It creates a bond of unity among all Christians
1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church.” “Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.”
It leaves an indelible mark on the soul
1272 Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ. Baptism seals the Christian with the indelible spiritual mark (character) of his belonging to Christ. No sin can erase this mark, even if sin prevents Baptism from bearing the fruits of salvation. Given once for all, Baptism cannot be repeated.
The Christian is body and soul.
The resurrected body also goes to heaven.
And where is the Kingdom of God??? It is NOT in Rome...
I’m not sure what that’s about, unless you once thought it was in Rome. Nobody I know thinks it is in Rome.
The church resides in the soul...
None of those verses point to the church residing in the soul. The idea that the Church is invisible is a man-made tradition.
You wrote:
“First, though, Catholicism is most certainly a denomination.”
Wrong. The Catholic Church, being founded by Christ, cannot be a denomination. It is logically impossible. Strictly speaking only Protestant sects and pseudo Christian groups like the Mormons can be denominations. The Catholic Church is a Church, THE CHURCH, and not a denomination.
“There are NO Catholics in the earliest Church in the Bible. NONE.”
Actually, they all were.
“They were Jewish followers of Christ for the most part - although there were some Gentiles.”
Exactly so. They were all Catholics drawn from Jewish and Gentile backgrounds but made no creatures in Christ.
“Nowhere does Christ refer to the Church as anything but believers in Him - i.e. those who have accepted His Gospel, i.e. his Sheep.”
Correct - and in AD 33 all of those believers were Catholics. Every last one of them.
“(”I know my sheep and they follow me.” John 10:27) While I know the old argument that the Catholic Church uses to try to establish themselves as the “True” or “First” Church, it is set on very shaky ground. A cursory glance through the NT does not support the idea that Peter was the first Pope, nor that Catholicism with its “extra-Biblical” dogmas and creeds the first/true Church. Christ never set up denominations.”
Again, the Catholic Church is not a denomination nor could it be.
“I am not a member of a sect, and frankly I am deeply concerned that many Catholics (and perhaps members of other denominations) are counting on a Church to save them.”
I have no idea where you’re getting that idea. I can only conclude you misunderstand something. If I am correct, you will respond by bringing up the idea of no salvation outside the Church. That will show you are mistaken.
“Dangerous territory indeed. Check out John 3:16, and again throughout Scripture where the Gospel is presented plainly: “I am the Way, the Truth, and the Life. No man comes to the Father but through Me.” John 14:6. There is no addendum to that Scripture which states “and the Catholic Church”. NONE.”
Incorrect. You are making two common errors: 1) You are assuming the Church plays a great role in preaching the gospel. That is how most people through the last 2,000 years learned it in fact. 2) You are mistakenly assuming Christ’s Church must carry the name “Catholic” in scripture for the Catholic Church to be that Church. This is an anachronism. Using your own logic, whatever your church is named, it must be in scripture by exactly that name and no other or it is not of God. Thus, you can only attend two bodies: 1) The Way (wherever you’ll find that) and 2) the Church (not exactly very specific for Protestants. You can’t even call it the Christian Church for no where in scripture does that phrase occur. See how your logic doesn’t work?
“It is Christ alone. Any other “Gospel” is heresy - as is stated throughout the Bible.”
I firmly believe only Christ can save us. And that is EXACTLY what the Catholic Church teaches. http://www.zenit.org/article-5964?l=english
It is the Protestant gospel - which no one heard before 1500 - that is the other gospel and a heresy.
“But again, you must understand that the Scriptures trump any creeds, dogma, doctrine, or statements that are extra-Biblical.”
Actually I believe the Bible is inspired and inerrant. I also believe that the Church in its teachings on faith and morals is also infallible. And the two never contradict one another.
“As for your complete misunderstanding of the SBC, I can only say that you have been woefully misinformed. No pastor that I have ever met, no official SBC spokesperson, etc... condones/supports abortion.”
You’re the one who is confused:
Resolution On Abortion, adopted at the SBC convention, June 1971:
WHEREAS, Christians in the American society today are faced with difficult decisions about abortion; and
WHEREAS, Some advocate that there be no abortion legislation, thus making the decision a purely private matter between a woman and her doctor; and
WHEREAS, Others advocate no legal abortion, or would permit abortion only if the life of the mother is threatened;
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, that this Convention express the belief that society has a responsibility to affirm through the laws of the state a high view of the sanctity of human life, including fetal life, in order to protect those who cannot protect themselves; and
Be it further RESOLVED, That we call upon Southern Baptists to work for legislation that will allow the possibility of abortion under such conditions as rape, incest, clear evidence of severe fetal deformity, and carefully ascertained evidence of the likelihood of damage to the emotional, mental, and physical health of the mother
Resolution On Abortion And Sanctity Of Human Life, adopted at the SBC convention, June 1974:
WHEREAS, Southern Baptists have historically held a high view of the sanctity of human life, and
WHEREAS, The messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in St. Louis in 1971 adopted overwhelmingly a resolution on abortion, and
WHEREAS, That resolution reflected a middle ground between the extreme of abortion on demand and the opposite extreme of all abortion as murder, and
WHEREAS, That resolution dealt responsibly from a Christian perspective with complexities of abortion problems in contemporary society;
Therefore, be it RESOLVED, that we reaffirm the resolution on the subject adopted by the messengers to the St. Louis Southern Baptist Convention meeting in 1971, and
Be it further RESOLVED, that we continue to seek God’s guidance through prayer and study in order to bring about solutions to continuing abortion problems in our society.
Clearly, in the 1970s, the SBC SUPPORTED THE MURDER OF INNOCENT CHILDREN. PERIOD.
The SBC made more such resolutions in 1976,
Resolution On Abortion, adopted at the SBC convention, June 1976:
Be it further RESOLVED, that we also affirm our conviction about the limited role of government in dealing with matters relating to abortion, and support the right of expectant mothers to the full range of medical services and personal counseling for the preservation of life and health.
Resolution On Abortion, adopted by the SBC convention, June 1977:
RESOLVED that this Convention reaffirm the strong stand against abortion adopted by the 1976 Convention, and, in view of some confusion in interpreting part of this resolution we confirm our strong opposition to abortion on demand and all governmental policies and actions which permit this.
Resolution On Abortion, adopted by the SBC convention, June 1978:
WHEREAS, The Southern Baptist Convention in annual session in 1977 spoke clearly and forthrightly to this issue,
Be it therefore RESOLVED, that we the messengers to the Southern Baptist Convention meeting in Atlanta in June 1978, reaffirm the resolution passed by the 1977 Kansas City Southern Baptist Convention.
Resolution On Abortion, adopted at the SBC convention, June 1979:
Be it further RESOLVED, that we also affirm our conviction about the limited role of government in dealing with matters relating to abortion, and support the right of expectant mothers to the full range of medical services and personal counseling for the preservation of life and health.
WHEREAS, This resolution was reaffirmed in 1978.
Therefore be it RESOLVED, that we affirm the positions taken by these Conventions, and
Be it further RESOLVED, that we urge all Southern Baptists to pray earnestly and work faithfully in dealing with this issue.
Resolution On Abortion, adopted at the SBC convention, June 1980:
Be it finally RESOLVED, That we favor appropriate legislation and/or a constitutional amendment prohibiting abortion except to save the life of the mother.
Resolution On Abortion And Infanticide, adopted at the SBC convention, May 1982:
Be it finally RESOLVED, That we support and will work for appropriate legislation and/or constitutional amendment which will prohibit abortions except to save the physical life of the mother, and that we also support and will work for legislation which will prohibit the practice of infanticide.
And so on, and so on. Murdering babies - for therapeutic reasons - is just dandy with the SBC.
“(By the way, your reference to SBC “Parishes” is incorrect as there is no such thing. Parishes are a Catholic set-up. SBC churches are loosely affiliated within the Southern Baptist Convention. They are not “owned” by the SBC in any way. They also do not preach murder.) Where are you getting your information?? Clearly not from a reliable source, I’m afraid.”
I used the word parish because it made more sense than to say SBC churches. SBC landmarkism does not prohibit the use of the world parish.
“My point about not relying on a denomination for salvation stands.”
Your point does not stand because your making a point in opposition to no counter claim. 1) The Catholic Church is not a denomination. 2) We rely on Christ and how He binds us to Him through His Church. It is not a reliance on the Church as if she were separate from Christ.
“You seem to be doing it - and I fear for you as I would anyone else who believes that membership in a particular body will buy their way into Heaven.”
Your fears are meaningless since they effect nothing and are not related to reality. Since you are, however, so mistaken, you might want to fear for yourself because you are simply not getting what you are condemning right before you condemn it.
“It will not - and that is clearly delineated in Scripture as well. Anyone denying Scripture does so at their peril. You seem to have deliberately misunderstood my point, so I will repeat it here: While one cannot know who will and won’t be saved (God alone draws His own to Him), to believe that one is not going to be saved unless one is a member of a particular denomination is not supported in Scripture.”
And again, who EXACTLY is claiming that? See, this is exactly what I mean. Here you are supposedly correcting me from supposed errors I do not even hold. Does it bother you that you can’t get any of this right thus far? You can’t seem to get the Catholic teaching right. You can’t get what I believe or write right, but your essentially “correctig” me anyway as if you did. So far, I have no gotten anything wrong nor have I misunderstood you in the least. Notice that? Also, notice how I am not imputing to you beliefs you do not actually hold? Do you think you could try to be that rigorous in your apprach to me and actually get things right for a change?
“Nor is the flip side of that coin: that one will be saved by membership in a particular body. Remember that Christ warned the Jewish leaders who claimed their birthright and leadership in the Jewish faith as reason for salvation. He reminded them that God could make followers from stones. They were not special nor forgiven because they were members of a particular faith or because of their Jewish “birthright”. Again, Scripture bears this out.”
And again, who here is claiming what you just supposedly refuted? Not me. Again, can’t you get anything right?
“I pray you will seek the Truth and not trust your salvation to membership in a particular Church.”
Your prayer was answered years ago and that’s why I am not in a sect like you are. Also, your prayer was answered so manifestly that I always get what you say right, do not falsely impute things to you and don’t waste my time refuting things you never even claimed to believe in. How about you pray for the same? Seriously, you’re embarrassing yourself when you claim I believe in things I never EVER claimed!
I see, the problem is not religion or Christianity but sectarianism. This does make sense. While I have learned much about the differences in denominations (even in the arguments) there is still far too much acrimony. That said, I am still not convinced that the debate should stop.
Well, that depends on the Rite and the Missal and Breviary. Either way any claim that Catholics are ignorant of the Holy Writ as a class is meaningless drivel.
No, it includes the many daily offices as well as the Mass readings.
“Thus, we should, in my opinion, stay away from such discussions as they will lead to heartburn INSIDE FR.”
I could not disagree more strongly. Free exercise of religion includes the freedom to set forth the reasons that we believe as we do.
That doesn’t mean that anyone has to listen, or read. But intellectually mature adults should...no, *must*...extend to others not only the freedom to believe as they do, but the freedom to talk about it.
If other posters find the discussion to be intolerable, then it is up to them to walk away, not up to the parties to the discussion to shut up.
On FR, of course, that is subject to the rules established by the management. In the larger society, it is a right protected by the Constitution, as correctly interpreted.
Since returning to the States in 2006—or perhaps I should say “returning to where the States used to be”—I have seen that rules prohibiting the discussion of politics in the workplace are a good idea. But this is not because *people* cannot discuss dearly held beliefs without becoming angry or developing undying enmity.
No, it is because libtards—whether they are known as progressives, leftists, Stalinists, Maoists, democrats, Marxists, liberation theologians, modernists, whatever word they are using to disguise their true nature and ruler—it is because one side *and*not*the*other* cannot discuss dearly held beliefs without becoming angry or developing undying enmity.
A company doesn’t care. They just want the work done without excessive hate and discontent in the workplace. Their solution, therefore, is to tell both sides to shut up.
A much better solution, a much fairer solution that displays far more respect for the truth, is to tell the people who can’t tolerate the expression of disagreement to shut the hell up or move the hell on.
If you can’t tolerate it that Catholics are free here to explain what they believe and why, then the problem lies with you.
If I couldn’t tolerate it that protestants are are free here to explain what they believe and why, I would be wondering why I was acting like a libtard.
“So if Mary was sinless, she didn’t need a savior. Could you really be claiming that Mary never sinned?”
No, Catholic doctrine does not claim that Mary never committed a single sin, no matter how slight.
We do believe that she was born without the taint of Original Sin that all the other exiled children of Eve have borne.
And, since protestants don’t believe that we are born with the stigma of original sin anyway, they shouldn’t have any problem with the proposition that Mary was not.
Firstly, you are claiming that your membership in what you refer to as “Orthodox Christianity” is the only way to Heaven. Your Original post implies that quite strongly, and you have not deviated from that in your follow-up posts - though now, for whatever reason, you are trying to claim you never said this. If you mistakenly claimed this, fine. But please do not go back now and claim you did not say it.
Your original post basically states that there is no way to Heaven but through the Catholic Church. This is based on nothing Scriptural. NOTHING. PERIOD. Early Christians were not Catholic. (Really, where do you get this??) It is nowhere to be found in Scripture and Scripture does not bear you out.
Your commitment to your particular denomination (Catholicism) and your denigration of all others speaks for you. It implies that somehow you believe (deny it all you will) that Catholicism is somehow the only WAY to Christ. In your previous post you even claimed that Christ chooses to save through the Catholic Church. You may go back and read it, but I am not imputing that to you which you have not already stated.
You began this entire thread, claiming that Catholicism is THE CHURCH - founded by Christ and that nothing in it is contrary to Scripture. Actually, there is MUCH in Catholicism which is contrary to Scripture: veneration of Saints, veneration of Mary/worship of Mary....and the belief that baptism saves (It does not - Scripture does not teach it.) My deep concern is that there seems to be an entire body of extra-Biblical teachings which Catholicism as a religion holds to more tightly than Scripture - and too often it contradicts the very Scriptures.
I have not embarrassed myself as I see no evidence that I have misunderstood your stance. In summation: you believe that Catholicism is the one true Church - despite the fact that Scriptures do not teach this; that all others are suspect and heretical (again, no Scriptural basis for stating this), and that there is nothing in Catholic teaching which contradicts Scripture (as I have pointed out above, clearly not the case.)
As for the SBC - as I have tried in vain to show you - there is nothing binding to local churches which the SBC does. I suppose, being Catholic, this idea might be foreign to you. However, kindly refrain from making slanderous statements about pastors who think “murder is just fine” - unless you can give names. I know of none - and being a Southern Baptist, I consider that I am likely more in a position to know what is being said from the pulpit of a Southern Baptist Church than you - unless you are attending a Southern Baptist Church? And your use of the word “Parish” is incorrect.
One more question: you refer to a “Protestant Gospel”....What Gospel would that be?? There is only one Gospel - as I have quoted from Scripture in my last response to you. Here you seem to be claiming that there are two Gospels: that taught by Catholicism, and that taught in Protestant churches. Kindly clarify. There is only one Gospel - that taught in Scriptures. PERIOD. All extra-Biblical creeds, dogmas, doctrines - are heretical if they preach a a way to Christ other than repentance and belief upon Him alone for salvation.
You claim to know Christ. Wonderful! When were you saved? I was saved when I was 7 years old.
“It implies that somehow you believe (deny it all you will) that Catholicism is somehow the only WAY to Christ.”
There is only ONE way to Heaven, that is through Our Lord Jesus Christ. Those who embrace Him, follow Him, and through Him attain the Heavenly rewards are all members of the Universal (Catholic) Church. This article is very clear that following the laws of the Catholic Church are not the only way (nor are they a guarantee) to obtain that reward.
You misunderstand the point, ALL who obtain the reward of Eternal Life belong to that Universal Church founded by Our Lord. Not all who claim that state on Earth will have that in the next world.
We do believe that she was born without the taint of Original Sin that all the other exiled children of Eve have borne.
And, since protestants don’t believe that we are born with the stigma of original sin anyway, they shouldn’t have any problem with the proposition that Mary was not.
Just wow, this is once again laughable “catholic” doctrine the Bible clearly states that all men are born into sin through Adam. Your prayers to Mary have no effect, she has died and did not rise again.
are all members of the Universal (Catholic) Church.
No that would be catholic which means universal not a universal Catholic Church.
I think we’re arguing semantics. I do not consider myself Catholic. You are correct in that there is one body of believers for those who know Christ “and are called according to His purpose”...but nowhere can I find in Scripture the term “Catholic” or “Universal” - any more than one finds any denomination praised by Christ in Scripture.
Unless and until you are ready to discuss the matter in a civil manner, I do not wish to enter into an exchange with you.
Many times I have seen arguments along these lines:
Non-Catholic: “You Catholics believe X.”
Catholic: “No, we believe y.”
Non-Catholic: “Nonsense. You Catholics believe X.”
Catholic: “No, we believe y.”
Non-Catholic: “Nonsense. You Catholics believe X.”
Catholic: “No, we believe y.”
Non-Catholic: “Nonsense. You Catholics believe X.”
Catholic: “No, we believe y.”
Non-Catholic: “Nonsense. You Catholics believe X.”
Catholic: “No, we believe y.”
Non-Catholic: “Nonsense. You Catholics believe X.”
Catholic: “No, we believe y.”
It’s not really very illuminating.
Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them to the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit; ...That universal command established the Church of Christ. His Apostles and their lineal successors, the Bishops of His Church, continue that Great Commission to this day.
Yawn.
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