Posted on 06/27/2009 10:01:54 AM PDT by Salvation
How Old Is Your Church?If you are a Lutheran, your religion was founded by Martin Luther, an ex- monk of the Catholic Church, in the year 1517. If you belong to the Church of England, your religion was founded by King Henry VIII in the year 1534 because the Pope would not grant him a divorce with the right to remarry. If you are a Presbyterian, your religion was founded by John Knox in Scotland in the year 1560. If you are a Protestant Episcopalian, your religion was an offshoot of the Church of England founded by Samuel Seabury in the American colonies in the 17th century. If you are a Congregationalist, your religion was originated by Robert Brown in Holland in 1582. If you are a Methodist, your religion was launched by John and Charles Wesley in England in 1744. If you are a Unitarian, Theophilus Lindley founded your church in London in 1774. If you are a Mormon (Latter Day Saints), Joseph Smith started your religion in Palmyra, N.Y., in 1829. If you are a Baptist, you owe the tenets of your religion to John Smyth, who launched it in Amsterdam in 1605. If you are of the Dutch Reformed church, you recognize Michaelis Jones as founder, because he originated your religion in New York in 1628. If you worship with the Salvation Army, your sect began with William Booth in London in 1865. If you are a Christian Scientist, you look to 1879 as the year in which your religion was born and to Mrs. Mary Baker Eddy as its founder. If you belong to one of the religious organizations known as 'Church of the Nazarene," "Pentecostal Gospel." "Holiness Church," "Pilgrim Holiness Church," "Jehovah's Witnesses," your religion is one of the hundreds of new sects founded by men within the past century. If you are Catholic, you know that your religion was founded in the year 33 by Jesus Christ the Son of God, and it is still the same Church. |
Foxe is a laughingstock.
What part of Roman Catholic persecution of other groups do believe is incorrect?
I don't know. I'm talking about the Catholic Church.
...but the past is not pretty for the RCC.
What is that, some kind of radio-controlled car club?
Thanks for that explanation. Well done.
When Scripture says “Believe and you may be baptized” it is implied. If you want to argue for infant faith, then you have a leg to stand on, or at least wobble on. The Scriptural examples though are not that of infants but of people who have explicitly placed their faith and trust in what Christ did on Calvary.
Ancient churches are not called Protestant churches and many Baptists do not refer to themselves as protestants. They did not arise out of the protestant reformation. Therefore to say Baptists are protestants is historically and theologically incorrect. Our rise did not come out of protesting the Catholic church, rather out of affirming what Scripture taught. The fact that much of that entailed being in opposition to what the established church taught does not make us protestants, however, for the root is not in the establishment but in Scripture.
Ad hominem attacks do not make your case. Read Foxe, and get back to us about what you believe is historically incorrect. Just because it is unflattering to Catholicism, does not mean it is factually wrong.
With the Title “Baptists”, no. Anabaptists, yes. Other re-baptizing groups, yes. Again, not all of these groups was a homogenous unit either, as Baptists today are not a homongenous unit. But rebaptizing of believers is something that is a hallmark of Baptist churches, and you can find that stretching back to the early days of the churches.
That's why I made none.
Just because it is unflattering to Catholicism, does not mean it is factually wrong.
Ah, and the turnabout is true as well: Just because it is unflattering to Catholicism, does not mean it is factually true.
What part of Roman Catholic persecution of other groups do believe is incorrect?
I don’t know. I’m talking about the Catholic Church.
OK - your terminology then - did the Catholic Church approve of heretics being burned at the stake? Did it partake or permit it?
No one claims Foxe is true because it is unflattering to Catholicism.
Did the events happen?
Were Ridley & Latimer burned at the stake? Was Cranmer burned?
This is a conservative website, and most conservatives believe truth exists outside of what people want to believe.
Did ALL the events happen as he described? To that order of magnitude?
“That is true, there is the catholic church, but that is not the same as the Roman Catholic Church. They are two different things
I’m sure you believe so, but that doesn’t make it so. The “catholic church” is the Catholic Church. Where do you think the Creed came from?”
Pretty much from a group of Greek speaking Eastern Bishops listed to this day in our dyptichs, not Rome’s, from whose spiritual descendants the pope of Rome broke, in great measure, over the later filioque innovation. As we all know, the filioque is 100% Rome’s responsibility. Is that what you meant when you made your comment about the Creed? In all honesty, for “Roman Catholicism” to claim, as it does, that it alone is the Catholic Church of the 1st century is complete nonsense. In fact, when we Orthodox hear it, well its sort of embarrassing in the way the public remarks of the odd uncle in the family are. You love him, he’s family...but sometimes you just wish he’d shut up.
BTW, I love watching your family fights! :)
So, are you saying that Roman Catholicism was NOT the persecutor throughout most of history?
Do you mean the Catholic Church?
What do you mean "the persecutor?" Do you imagine all persecution came from one source?
I think that might make you guys the crazy aunt who interrupts with "her own facts," all in a jumble, with whom everyone pretends to agree just so she'll stop interrupting.
“Did ALL the events happen as he described?”
Unless he were a perfect historian, no.
Of course, as the flames burned their bodies, the folks dying may have forgiven Foxe if every detail wasn’t right. Bottom line - they were burnt, and it happened with the approval of the Catholic Church.
Far from it.
Of course, as the flames burned their bodies, the folks dying may have forgiven Foxe if every detail wasn’t right.
Even the vast number of them who never existed and never were burnt but were counted nonetheless in his exaggerated, self-serving, sensationalistic torture-porn?
Deflect! Deflect!
But under no case, answer the question: “...did the Catholic Church approve of heretics being burned at the stake? Did it partake or permit it?”
I should mention that I haven’t read Foxe in years, and have no desire to do so now.
Here. I’ll answer for you. Of COURSE the Catholic Church approved of heretics being burned at the stake.
And, of course, the beliefs of those burnt coincide in many cases with my own. Happily, I don’t live in a place where the Catholic Church has power of life & death over us. I’m a wimp, and doubt I’d hold up well to being burnt.
Why would I answer your question? I’m interested in taking the questions of those genuinely interested in the Catholic Church, but not those who ask only for the sake of attack and/or games of gotcha.
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