I have a 1/3 size replica at thome.
Posted on 06/23/2009 3:47:53 PM PDT by delacoert
Official Mormon Statements about the Bible:
The Mormon church teaches that the Bible has been corrupted and does not contain the fullness of the gospel. This is reflected in one of their Articles of Faith which states: "We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly" (Pearl of Great Price).
Comparisons made by Mormon Leaders between the Bible and Book of Mormon. In contrast to the Bible, Mormons believe the Book of Mormon is perfect because it was translated perfectly (miraculously) as reflected in the second half of the same Article of Faith: "...we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God [but without any qualifications as to translation accuracy]" (Pearl of Great Price).
!
If you factor in recent research into med-basin chronologies the problem gets even worse. The best experts on those topics, i.e. people like Gunnar Heinsohn, Charles Ginenthal, and Emmet Sweeney, are now claiming that there truly isn't any med-basin history any older than about 3000 years starting from now.
In your dreams.
According to Mormon mythology, the Mormons are descended from the Tribe of Ephraim, which led the other nine tribes of the northern kingdom into idolatry and eventual destruction and dispersion.
Too bad Mormons don't read that King James Bible they supposedly believe in, for in the Book of Hosea they would read that God has nothing good to say about the Tribe of Ephraim, including the following:
"For the wickedness of their doings, I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more; all their princes are revolters. Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit, yea though they bring forth, yet will I slay the beloved fruit of their womb. My God will cast them away because they did not listen to Him and they whall be wanderers among the nations." [Hosea 9:15-17]
And this is the Tribe that Mormons claim their spiritual heritage descends from??? They need to wake up!!!
Actually, once Joseph Smith uttered his translation in English, human error enters the picture in that the scribe can make a mistake. This is exactly the same way some NT variants were created when the scribe was making a hand copy by listening to a reader. And, of course, the generation of the printer's manuscript led to more mistakes. The work of Royal Skousen is to examine the differences between these manuscripts.
"Good book. Can't wait for the sequel."
I have a 1/3 size replica at thome.
Then post some RESTORED gospel from it that the BIBLE does NOT contain.
CAn you?
Can ANY Mormon?
But you DO have the JST - given by GOD as He sat at JS's side as he 'translated' the KJV.
THEREEFORE; if you TRULY believe JS was a PROPHET; then you HAVE to accept the JST as being the MOST ACCURATE BIBLE TRANSLATION EVER PRODUCED.
Just you; you crotchety ol’ rascal!
Be careful of what you wish for!
Remember how when the PAPYRUS showed up; it PROVED that the Book of Abraham was as BOGUS as they come!
Why do YOU still cling to this Organization that is so shoddy?
Perhaps it is the same as...
The Lord in His wisdom took back the Plates and will produce them again in the Lord own time!:)
I’m glad that you realize the BoM is full of errors.
And this is the Tribe that Mormons claim their spiritual heritage descends from??? They need to wake up!!!
I just posted an article from the official LDS site named "The Ancient Covenant Restored" from which this was taken. (Note: I am one of those "anti" mormons.)
From The Ancient Covenant Restored.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2279170/posts?page=1
In a revelation received on 6 December 1832, the Savior said: “Thus saith the Lord unto you, with whom the priesthood hath continued through the lineage of your fathers—for ye are lawful heirs, according to the flesh, and have been hid from the world with Christ in God—therefore your life and the priesthood have remained, and must needs remain through you and your lineage until the restoration of all things spoken by the mouths of all the holy prophets since the world began” (D&C 86:8–10).
The Prophet Joseph Smith was a descendant of Abraham, a “pure Ephraimite.” 16 By actual lineage he had a right to the gospel, the priesthood, and eternal life (see Abr. 2:8–11).
President Brigham Young declared on one occasion: “You have heard Joseph say that the people did not know him; he had his eyes on … blood-relations. … His descent from Joseph that was sold into Egypt was direct, and the blood was pure in him. … He had the sole right and lawful power, as he was the legal heir to the blood that has been on the earth and has come down through a pure lineage. The union of various ancestors kept that blood pure. There is a great deal the people do not understand, and many of the Latter-day Saints have to learn all about it.” 17 President Young also taught: “It was decreed in the counsels of eternity, long before the foundations of the earth were laid, that he, Joseph Smith, should be the man, in the last dispensation of this world, to bring forth the word of God to the people, and receive the fulness of the keys and power of the Priesthood of the Son of God. The Lord had his eyes upon their progenitors clear back to Abraham, and from Abraham to the flood, from the flood to Enoch, and from Enoch to Adam. He has watched that family and that blood as it has circulated from its fountain to the birth of that man. He was foreordained in eternity to preside over this last dispensation.” 18
Through the Prophet Joseph Smith—the latter-day descendant of Joseph and Ephraim—the Lord has made available all of the blessings of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob to all who will join the Church and prove worthy of the blessings of the temple. In November 1831, the Lord referred to a significant “blessing upon the head of Ephraim and his fellows” (D&C 133:34). Remember that Ephraim received the birthright over the tribes of Israel. In the last days it has been the leadership responsibility of the tribe of Ephraim to take the message of the restored gospel of Jesus Christ to the world. Thus, in compliance with the Lord’s covenants and promises made to the fathers Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, and Joseph, and in compliance with the birthright blessing given to Ephraim to preside in Israel, the gospel and all of its covenantal powers were literally restored to a literal descendant of Ephraim, one who by right and covenant then could begin the dispersal of that gospel and its priesthood powers, ordinances, and covenants to the ends of the earth.
LOL, thanks Don for telling us that your “most perfect book” on earth is not as advertized. Lets examine what your history tells us about this translation process. For starters, we know that smith never really used the plates but stuffed his face into his hat and ‘recited’ what ever appeared on his seer stone.
Scribal errors – what did the scribe themselves say:
"Joseph Smith would put the seer stone into a hat, and put his face in the hat, drawing it closely around his face to exclude the light; and in the darkness the spiritual light would shine. A piece of something resembling parchment would appear, and on that appeared the writing. One character at a time would appear, and under it was the interpretation in English. Brother Joseph would read off the English to Oliver Cowdery, who was his principal scribe, and when it was written down and repeated to Brother Joseph to see if it was correct, then it would disappear, and another character with the interpretation would appear. Thus the Book of Mormon was translated by the gift and power of God, and not by any power of man." (David Whitmer, An Address to All Believers in Christ, Richmond, Mo.: n.p., 1887, p. 12.)
http://library.lds.org/nxt/gateway.dll/Magazines/Ensign/1993.htm/ensign%20july%201993.htm/a%20treasured%20testament.htm
Please take note of this Don, Whitmer’s statement is endorsed by mormon leaders at the above website by Russell M. Nelson, "A Treasured Testament," Ensign, July 1993. Does this match YOUR scenario – not at all. Here is a documented check system – Cowdery would repeat the portion to insure correctness, THEN the next portion of the translation would appear and not until the passage was correctly copied down.
From the above Ensign article “Emma Smith, who acted as an earlier scribe for Joseph, gave this account in 1856:
“When my husband was translating the Book of Mormon, I wrote a part of it, as he dictated each sentence, word for word, and when he came to proper names he could not pronounce, or long words, he spelled them out, and while I was writing them, if I made any mistake in spelling, he would stop me and correct my spelling although it was impossible for him to see how I was writing them down at the time. Even the word Sarah he could not pronounce at first, but had to spell it, and I would pronounce it for him.”
So Don, put to bed the mormon “scribal error” excuse. IF it was by the power of god as described by the scribes, the bom was dictated letter by letter, word by word, eliminating the human error factor, since “translation” wouldn’t continue until it was written down correctly.
This is exactly the same way some NT variants were created when the scribe was making a hand copy by listening to a reader. You really don’t understand the process, even the passages you try to use to denigrate the Bible. Were you to fully study Metzger’s The Text of the New Testament: Its Transmission, Corruption, and Restoration. You would note that he comments that New Testament manuscripts agree in 99.5% of content and that most of the discrepancies are in spelling and word order. As I stated before, you arguments do not stand up to critical examination – even by the very authors you try to cite.
And, of course, the generation of the printer's manuscript led to more mistakes. The work of Royal Skousen is to examine the differences between these manuscripts.
Wow, mythbusters day! Once again, there are two handwritten copies of the bom prior to the typesetting and printing. Guess what Don, through textural criticism applied even simply to the bom – those ‘errors’ are readily identified. Further, these items are primarily in the realm of punctuation and some spelling. This still doesn’t explain Ether 4:1, or 1 Nephi 20:1 where GROSS changes in the bom were made. Don, do a little deeper research. Why would the mormon church continue to change the work even after Joseph Smith's death? If the bom was translated by the power of god, the 4000 some ought changes suggest that this “power” was less than adequate.
Skousen may have his fun with the bom and its changes, but it is not at the level of biblical textural criticism. Any study of the bom must consider the two hand written original “translations” of the plates as being the most correct. Any changes to them would represent errors added by man to the bom - just as you claim any changes to the biblical ms over time represent the introduction errors.
She tries. Doesn’t work.
Your point falls a bit short, the BofM does not claim to be a perfect book, just the most perfect book. That implies imperfections. It is certainly much closer to the original author's version than the Bible. Of course, we don't have the original copies of the Bible manuscripts, not even copies of the original copies, nor the even copies of those copies.
put to bed the mormon “scribal error” excuse
No can do. Again your point falls short. What you are providing is the recollection of the scribes on how the text was transmitted to them. I submit this is only speculation on their part on how the translation, as opposed to the transmission, took place. You did not provide an account by Joseph Smith on how the translation was accomplished, because there is none available. Also, not every word was spelled out, just names the first time they were transmitted to the scribe.
As a prophet, Joseph certainly had the inspiration to make any corrections to the BofM, and he did.
For more on that I would refer you to: "The Parallel Book of Mormon"
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2277885/posts?page=31#31
chew on this
So many LDS/Mormon critics get off on the fact that the papyrus recovered from the collection that Joseph Smith and the Saints obtained doesn’t have the text of the Book of Abraham on it.
Rather it’s an Egyptian Funerary text often refered to as a “Book of Breathings” or the “snsn” text. With it’s famouse facsimilie 1 being placed in the Book of Abraham by Joseph Smith critics have long claimed a ‘home run’ on this matter.-—
Now, however there’s a funerary text with both elements of the snsn papyrus AND a clear reference to Abraham.__
Was Joseph just a good guesser? Is this just a grand coincidence?
I’m not here to try and prove the Book of Abraham. But this is evidence that the case isn’t as much an ‘open and shut’ instance as the LDS critics would feign it to be
Abraham Referenced in Egyptian Papyrus w/ties 2 facsimilie 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dBSANPOf6CU
The Book of Abraham for dummies 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LcT5OebkBGI
A prophet by definition was getting information directly from God and the idea of having to revise info direct from God involves some kind of a breakdown in logic.
Worse, there is every reason to believe that the last real prophet died some time prior to Alexander. The first paragraph of the book of Romans notes that God had spoken to Jewish ancestors in times long distant (to the author of the book of Romans) but that in these later times (the age of Christ) God had sent his son directly to commune with humankind and that supports Julian Jaynes' claim that all such artifacts of the ancient paradigm for the human mind had passed out of existence somewhere around the time of Zechariah.
Says it all!
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