Posted on 06/18/2009 4:02:05 PM PDT by bronxville
Mary not just for Catholics anymore
By Patricia Zapor Catholic News Service
WASHINGTON (CNS) -- As publications from Time magazine to Christianity Today have discovered recently, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is not just for Catholics anymore.
Features on Mary are perennial favorites for editors looking for a religion-themed story before Christmas, and in the last few years many of these articles have focused on the increasing popularity of Mary among Protestants.
Marianist Father Thomas Thompson, editor of the Marian Library Newsletter at the University of Dayton in Ohio, points out that the expanding Protestant acceptance of Mary is based upon a strictly scriptural view of her, rather than on any change in Protestant theology.
Some Catholic doctrines about Mary, such as the Immaculate Conception -- the belief that she was conceived without sin -- remain controversial among Protestants, Father Thompson said. But as anti-Catholicism has waned among Protestants, the barriers to Episcopalians, Baptists and evangelicals turning to Mary have faded as well.
"We're very happy to see others taking an interest in Mary," he said in a telephone interview with Catholic News Service.
Timothy George, dean of Beeson Divinity School at Samford University, a Baptist college in Birmingham, Ala., wrote recently that "it is time for evangelicals to recover a fully biblical appreciation of the Blessed Virgin Mary and her role in the history of salvation, and to do so precisely as evangelicals." George's comments appeared in the December 2003 issue of Christianity Today and in a 2004 collection of essays by various theologians, "Mary: Mother of God."
"We may not be able to recite the rosary or kneel down before statues of Mary, but we need not throw her overboard," George wrote.
In the magazine, he quoted an early 20th-century Southern Baptist New Testament scholar, A.T. Robertson, who said Mary "has not had fair treatment either from Protestants or Catholics." Robertson argued that while Catholics have "deified" Mary evangelicals have coldly neglected her.
"We have been afraid to praise and esteem Mary for her full worth," said George, citing Robertson, "lest we be accused of leanings and sympathy with Catholics."
George's article went on to explain historical, scriptural and theological reasons why Protestants should embrace Mary.
"We need not go through Mary in order to get to Jesus," George concluded, "but we can join with Mary in pointing others to him."
Another recent book, "Blessed One," is a collection of 11 essays about Mary by Protestant scholars.
In their introduction, editors Beverly Roberts Gaventa and Cynthia L. Rigby, professors at Princeton Theological Seminary in New Jersey and Austin Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Texas, respectively, said their goal for the book was to help Protestants think in new ways about Mary, "blessing her and being blessed by her."
"She is a person of faith who does not always understand but who seeks to put her trust in God," they wrote.
For Muslims, on the other hand, Mary has always been a part of the picture.
John Alden Williams, professor emeritus in the humanities of religion at the College of William and Mary in Virginia, is a Catholic historian who has studied Islamic civilization and religion. He and fellow William and Mary professor James A. Bill published "Roman Catholics and Shi'i Muslims" in 2002.
It notes that two sections of the Quran, the sacred book of Islam, are devoted to Mary, known there as Maryam. She is recognized as the purified woman chosen to be the mother of the promised Messiah. Islam considers Jesus an important prophet, but not the incarnation of God.
Williams explained in a phone interview that, like Catholics, Shiite Muslims, who are a minority compared to the vastly more numerous Sunni Muslims, believe in intercessory prayer through saints and other holy people. That includes Mary, who is highly revered as a mediatrix between humans and God, or Allah. Sufis, another Islamic sect, also believe in intercession.
In Sunni Islam, "the whole idea of intercession is disputed," Williams said, "just as it is among Calvinist Protestants."
Among the differences the leaders of the Protestant Reformation had with the Catholic Church was the growth during the Middle Ages of devotion to Mary. Reformers argued that Jesus was the only mediator between God and mankind and that "exuberant Marian devotion seemed to them to threaten the clarity of the Gospel message of salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, through Christ alone," wrote Daniel L. Migliore, a theology professor at Princeton Theological Seminary, in his chapter in "Blessed One."
Muslims who seek Mary's intercession, on the other hand, see her in much the same way Catholics do, said Williams.
While living in the Middle East, he said he witnessed several striking examples of the reverence many Muslims have for Mary.
At the Convent of Our Lady, an Orthodox church in Sednaya, Syria, he watched devout Muslims roll out prayer rugs to join Christians in reverencing an icon of Mary that is reputed to have been painted by St. Luke the Evangelist and believed to have the power to cure illnesses.
And in the late 1960s, many Muslims were among the millions who gathered in a Coptic Orthodox church in Egypt, hoping to catch a glimpse of reported Marian apparitions, he said.
For more than a year starting in 1968, apparitions of Mary were reported over the domes of the Church of the Virgin Mary in the Zeitoun area of Cairo.
Williams went to the church once during that time and was surprised to see Muslims among the crowd, he said.
"I asked some people, 'Isn't it a little funny for you to be coming here to a Christian church?'" Williams said. They said they considered it only proper that Mary would appear at a church dedicated to her, but explained that they believed she was speaking to all Egyptians, not just Christians.
"They all saw it as a great sign of consolation after the war with Israel (in 1967) that God had not forgotten the people of Egypt," he said.
“Christians go through Christ, everyone else is just a dead human”
In his #1 Evangelical book, The Purpose Driven Life, Rick Warren, says:
Your spiritual family is even more important than your physical family because it will last forever. Our families on the earth are wonderful gifts from God, but they are temporary and fragile, often broken by divorce, distance, growing old, and inevitably, death...our spiritual family-our relationship to other believers-will continue throughout eternity. It is a much stronger union, a more permanent bond than blood relationships. (The Purpose Driven Life, pg 118)
I posted the writings of Luther, Crammer, Wesley, Zwingli, et al and I’m told you’ve all grown up since then. Yet when I post the interpretation of todays pastors I’m told you don’t follow them either. So who do you all follow? If you say Jesus Christ and as such don’t need a pastor then whose interpreting the Holy Bible with you? Are you all an authority unto yourselves?
The above paragraph by Rick Warren is almost the same as Catholic teaching and he’s an Evangelical. Do you agree with his interpretation? If not why not and under whose authority are you following?
Ummmm...isn't that what I said? Inspired = God breathed.
Well, no actually in 132 I said...
“I trust the people who put the Words on paper.”
And you said
“So do I, the Holy Spirit.”
The Holy Spirit didn’t put any Words on paper.
Good grief.
YOU wrote (post 101) “From the Douay-Rheims it says....”
I pointed out that it “is a translation of the Bible from the Latin Vulgate into English.” Normally, double translations aren’t the most accurate. And the Douay-Rheims you quoted was made in response to the Reformation.
Yes, the Latin Vulgate is older, but it has many texts - as do the Greek and Hebrew. Modern translations - which I’ve used - take all that into account in trying to figure out what the original manuscripts would have been.
Neither of us is qualified to debate the quality of various texts used in translating the Bible. From what I’ve read, the Catholic Church, in the 1500s, tried to set in stone what is the authoritative text - by decree, not scholarship.
That is fine if you are arguing with other Catholics, but doesn’t count for much when you cite scripture to non-Catholics. If you have reason to believe the texts used by the NIV / ESV etc are bogus, feel free to lecture me. Otherwise, I’ll go with the best scholarship of folks who have devoted their lives to studying the basic Greek & Hebrew texts.
I don’t like Rick Warren, but I doubt even Rick Warren would suggest our ‘spiritual family’ takes precedence over the Word of God.
Or are you suggesting that we need to approach God via saints and various other humans? Mary?
Romans 8:
“15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.”
I don’t know about you, but my kids don’t need to approach me via their cousins...or my Mom. And remember - Abba can be translated, “Daddy”.
Hebrews 10:
“19 Therefore, brothers, since we have confidence to enter the Most Holy Place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.”
We have confidence to enter by Jesus, our Great High Priest - not by human intervention.
I’ll look forward to it. Thanks for taking the time to clarify.
“If not why not and under whose authority are you following?”
That is a central point for Protestants. ANY human can err in interpretation, so therefor we feel compelled to examine the scripture and make our own interpretation. After all, it is OUR souls in the balance.
I can assure you of this - no Baptist I’ve ever met considers Rick Warren to be an authority he/she needs to follow blindly!
So you don't believe the Bible is the inspired word of God? "Holy men of God spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit."?
I know you are not going to give on any issue the Holy Roman Catholic Church teaches. At least be open to the idea that you/they may not have it all right. I certainly respect your right to believe as you choose.
My responses have been to the posting about the Roman Catholic's tenets regarding the place of Mary in ALL Christians' lives. Many people do NOT agree and aren't afraid to say why. This is NOT Catholic-bashing or persecution.
I'm done for the night. Thanks for the back and forth.
No, Mary was free of original sin. God would not join Himself to sin or imperfection. Jesus was made up of Mary’s genetic code and took on her human traits. Mary was not a sinner. God would not have picked a sinner to mother His Son, teach Him, train Him, and care for Him for His whole life.
The angel Gabriel called Mary blessed among all women and full of grace. Did God’s messenger lie? Logic dictates that Mary was not a sinner.
Even Martin Luther thought so:
“She is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin- something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of all evil. (Personal {”Little”} Prayer Book, 1522).”
Mary was a human mother but was not born in sin. God cannot be part of sin and He became part of Mary when He used her genetic code in her Son. Christ joined Mary’s humanity. She is not just a bloodline, like a brood mare. Mary was selected for her saintly nature and the mother she would be to Christ. She was selected for her unique soul. Otherwise God could have selected anyone all along David’s bloodline for centuries. God had a purpose in selecting Mary.
The angel Gabriel proclaimed Mary blessed among all women and full of grace. Was God’s messenger lying? Mary is unique and special and Christ loves her very much. This is why the Catholic Church loves her very much.
St. Paul told the early Church to pray to those who had died and were in heaven for help. Mary is surely one of the most saintly souls in Heaven. We pray to her to ask her for help. We ask her to petition her Son on our behalf.
What happened to the Protestant Tradition?
Nothing. "Protestant" tradition, link papist tradition, is, and should always have been, subordinate to the Bible.
Why?
“15 For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, “Abba, Father.” 16 The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God’s children.”
If you can call God "Daddy", why do you have to ask Mary to petition Jesus on your behalf?
"St. Paul told the early Church to pray to those who had died and were in heaven for help."
Where?
Romans 3
“For we have already charged that all, both Jews and Greeks, are under sin, 10 as it is written:
“None is righteous, no, not one;
11 no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12 All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one.”
Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.
Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).
Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).
Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).
As these passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.
That’s why I could never believe in the doctrine of the Catholic Church. But I have good friends that are Catholic.
I have the same opinion as you on Mary...man keeps heaping new names on her and God gave her the greatest name, Mother of Jesus..Don’t need all the other names..
That is a great post....(I cannot apologize for past posts to you because this just maybe a once in a lifetime agreement) :O])
Somewhere along the way Protestants lost the Communion of Saints of the creed.
I wonder where/when that happened also.
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