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To: Mr Rogers

Not only do those in heaven pray with us, they also pray for us. In the book of Revelation, John sees that “the twenty-four elders [the leaders of the people of God in heaven] fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints” (Rev. 5:8). Thus the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.

Angels do the same thing: “[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God” (Rev. 8:3–4).

Jesus himself warned us not to offend small children, because their guardian angels have guaranteed intercessory access to the Father: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones; for I tell you that in heaven their angels always see the face of my Father who is in heaven” (Matt. 18:10).

Because he is the only God-man and the Mediator of the New Covenant, Jesus is the only mediator between man and God (1 Tim. 2:5), but this in no way means we cannot or should not ask our fellow Christians to pray with us and for us (1 Tim. 2:1–4). In particular, we should ask the intercession of those Christians in heaven, who have already had their sanctification completed, for “[t]he prayer of a righteous man has great power in its effects” (Jas. 5:16).

As these passages show, the early Church Fathers not only clearly recognized the biblical teaching that those in heaven can and do intercede for us, but they also applied this teaching in their own daily prayer life.


155 posted on 06/18/2009 10:08:59 PM PDT by Melian ("Now, Y'all without sin can cast the first stone." ~H.I. McDunnough)
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To: Melian

Rev 5.8: “8 And when he had taken it, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb. Each one had a harp and they were holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.”

You then conclude “the saints in heaven offer to God the prayers of the saints on earth.”

Sorry, but it doesn’t follow. Incense fills a place with a scent. The prayers of the saints DO fill heaven, but that isn’t the same as saints in heaven offering prayers for those on earth, or coming between us and God to pass on our prayers. No where in scripture are we told to pray to saints in heaven that they may intercede for us before God. And if it is the saints in heaven who offer our prayers to God, then why only 24?

On the contrary. Romans 8: “ 26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express. 27 And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God’s will.”

Hebrews 7: “25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.”

There is no need for interpretation, for we are plainly told

We are the children of God, calling him Daddy! Do your children need to find others to communicate to you on their behalf? Do your children need to ask your Mom to present their case?

1 Timothy 2: “1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone— 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.”

Notice, we are instructed to pray...but it says nothing about praying to saints in heaven, or asking Mary to intercede on our behalf. One would think that if Mary could tell Jesus what to do, or if we could/should ask her to intercede for us, then there would be some mention of it somewhere in scripture.

This is the problem with the Roman Catholic Church. Over a thousand years, it picked up from the culture around it the habits and customs of men - and then elevated those stains to the position of Church doctrine!

No one could go to an earthly king and hope for direct access. Instead - and I’ve lived in societies like this - you need to find someone on the inside to represent your case. But that is not what scripture reveals about God.


172 posted on 06/19/2009 6:52:54 AM PDT by Mr Rogers (I loathe the ground he slithers on!)
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