Posted on 06/04/2009 10:39:24 AM PDT by Colofornian
As a former Mormon...I had to address the recent news story about the proxy baptism of President Obama’s dead mother...
Church officials are now stating that it is not the practice of the LDS church to perform such proxy baptism without family members’ permission. That is, at best, disingenuous and, at worst, an outright lie. Until 1995, LDS church members could submit names of any deceased person for proxy baptism, even in the absence of any relationship. In 1995, Jewish groups became rightly outraged when they discovered that Mormons were posthumously baptizing Jewish Holocaust victims into the LDS church. At that point, official church policy became that only family members could give permission for a proxy baptism.
However, no mechanism has ever been instituted for Mormon Church officials to obtain that permission. Quite odd for a church that prides itself on its organizational efficiency, isn’t it? Almost makes one think that LDS priesthood leaders are only paying lip-service to the concept of family permission.
Oddly enough, the argument that one frequently hears from Mormons...is, “If we’re wrong, then it doesn’t matter. If we’re right, you’ll thank us in the hereafter.” They’re completely missing the point.
This is about boundaries and behaving like decent, civilized individuals who respect others’ beliefs.
SNIP
To all you Mormons out there who still might think of trying to justify yourselves about all this, try this one on for size: Suppose a bunch of us ex-Mormons start doing proxy excommunications for dead Mormons without permission of those dead Mormons’ families? I mean, if we’re wrong, it makes no difference, and if we’re right, then your relatives will thank us for getting them out of a bizarre cult in the afterlife, right? Yeah, I didn’t think you’d be OK with that...
(Excerpt) Read more at vcreporter.com ...
I think these people who have a chip on their shoulder about the Mormon “baptism for the dead” need to get over themselves. Do people get this bent out of shape over Catholics who light candles and have Masses said on behalf of the dead!?
I have quite a few Mormon friends who tell me that they plan on proxy baptism for me after I have died. I explain that I am pretty sure my current baptism took, and that my salvation won’t be affected one way or the other by their action. But if they just need an excuse to get wet, have at it. It’s nice to be remembered.
I can call my Friday chicken dinner a fish dinner but that doesn’t change what it is no matter how much water is sprinkled on it, around it, or what the person doing the sprinkling believes. That said, I can understand why people would be angry but I hope they will hold to their beliefs and understand those posthumous baptisms were a waste of water.
At least, that’s how this Christian sees it.
The answer is no because the mormon practice is done with the intent of the dead spirit claiming the baptism and thus entering heaven. This concept nullifies the blood atonement of Christ.
The Catholic practice is nothing akin to this blasphemy
“Do people get this bent out of shape over Catholics who light candles and have Masses said on behalf of the dead”
It’s a good point. I’d prefer that we kept such arguments out of FR, because unity is like, power, man.
But yes, basically a lot of people do think both things aren’t right, and that it’s tragic when anyone turns Christianity into their own personal religion with these ideas that are pulled from nowhere. It comes from the fact that this is what people want to do. People want to feel good about Uncle Jim going to heaven, so people want to do this, and they just aren’t happy with the idea that Uncle Jim made whatever bed he made, and now he has to lie in it. If you’re interested in what the Reformationist, Bible-believing Protestant view is, it’s that a lot of this kind of stuff came into the Established Church at the exact same time as they were allowing “indulgences” for rape, murder, whatever, and there were basically doing whatever they wanted, so heck, if your rich parishioner wants a big service to pray for Uncle Jim, then by heck, they’re going to pray for Uncle Jim.
Now I wouldn’t go making a big argument about it you know, because we’ve all got a lot more in common than we have seperating us, but that’s the view we have..
God says in the Bible that NOTHING can separate us from Him.
Much ado about nothing.
I would have no problem with that whatsoever. Few (if any) Mormons would.
My point is more about the spirit behind the act. The Mormon who goes down in the waters of baptism is doing it out of love, a sense of duty and mission. The Catholic who says a rosary or pays for a Mass to be held does so for similar reasons: love, duty and mission.
Neither the Mormon or the Catholic are hurting anyone (either the deceased or those who survive). It is only God’s decision about whether either act is efficacious for salvation. I personally believe as you do that these acts of kindness bear no relevance to one’s salvation, but it’s not MY beliefs this ex-Mormon is rudely railing against.
I think respect is a two way street, and people like the ex-Mormon who wrote this article demands respect without giving it. I think this ex-Mormon should be spending more time contemplating the religious motivations of those who want to use religion to condone cutting off people’s heads with dull steak knives rather than going after Mormon’s baptism rites or Catholic funeral masses saying prayers for the dead.
Have any place for me to come up to speed on this? His mother had 2 funeral services (one which Barack did not attend because of the looming election) and the other well away from the election in his honor, and both were held at Unitarian churches, no?
And his half sister by his mother is agnostic like mom, right?
So who would’ve requested this and when was it done?
PS extra points for anyone who can tell me when Barack Obama, supposedly raised Christian, was baptised as a child and if he was baptised again when he joined Jeremiah Wright’s “Christian” church? Or did the Catholic priest he cited at Notre Dame baptize him?
The author of this one apparently has decided to try harder. Unfortunately, he fails to understand that every act to damage the Church inadvertently builds it up instead. The Church just gets bigger and stronger while he recedes farther and farther into the background...ineffective, angry, and alone.
I am responsible to God only for those things that I do, and what anybody else thinks or does about it, so long as they don't physically attack me, defraud me, or lie about me, affects me not at all.
People need to lighten up a little.
What does Pres. Obama’s funeral arrangements for his grandmother (his mother died over 10 years ago) have to do with the topic of this thread?
But to answer your question: Obama’s late Maternal Grandmother was Unitarian.
I doubt that that is the reason the Jews object. Christ is blasphemous to a devout Jew.
I doubt that that is the reason the Jews object. Christ is blasphemous to a devout Jew.
Go for it. I don't care.
Lead sentence:
“As a former Mormon...I had to address the recent news story about the proxy baptism of President Obama’s dead mother... “
Oh, sorry. Still curious who’d ask for his mother’s baptism. Especially as Mormon. Weren’t her parents non-observant Baptists (turned Unitarian)?
Yeah, I mean I don’t want to denigrate the Mormon Church at all. I think focusing on things like this is what the Left wants to do. I disagree with stuff like this, and I’d like to be able to say I disagree in such a way that says “I disagree with x, but I still think you’re good people & you’re not in some ‘sin bin’ in my book”. The same goes for catholics on FR.
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