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Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity
Walter Martin's Religious InfoNet ^ | 1993 | Walter Martin

Posted on 06/02/2009 4:23:01 PM PDT by Alex Murphy

Jehovah's Witnesses and the Trinity

The doctrine of the Holy Trinity has been consistently misunderstood, probably more than any other teaching of the Bible. Frequently investigation into the doctrine of the Trinity has been dismissed from serious discussion or study by invoking the time-worn assertions - "It's a great mystery" or "This is incomprehensible" - thus discouraging many from investigating the scriptural basis of the doctrine.

Due principally to this attitude as well as certain complex aspects of the Trinity doctrine itself, there has been a revival of anti-Trinitarian heresies during the past one hundred and fifty years, and they have gone largely unanswered. Prominent among those groups rejecting the historic doctrine of the Trinity are Mormonism, Christian Science, Unity, Spiritism, Herbert W. Armstrong and his Radio Church of God and Jehovah's Witnesses (-i.e., The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society).

According the Jehovah's Witnesses, the Trinity is a Satanic dogma of apostate Christianity that prevents people from knowing the true God, Jehovah. The Watchtower puts it this way: "The doctrine in brief is that there are three gods in one: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost...the Holy Spirit is not a person and is therefore not one of the gods of the Trinity...the Trinity doctrine was not conceived by Jesus or the early Christians...the obvious conclusion therefore is that Satan is the originator of the Trinity doctrine."1

Since the Watchtower denies that the Trinity doctrine is Biblical; and since they complicate the issue by defining it incorrectly - the task of true Christians is two fold: First, a definition in accord with historic Christianity must be given. Secondly, it must be shown that the doctrine of the Trinity is both Biblical and essential to the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

THE HOLY TRINITY Definition:

Within the unity of the One God there are three Persons, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit; and these three share the same Nature and attributes. In effect, the three Persons ARE the one God.
From this concise statement, similarly set forth in many theological texts,2 it is clear that the Christian Church does not believe that "there are three gods in One." Quite to the contrary, we affirm that there is but one God, as Scripture repeatedly asserts (Deut. 6:4, Isa. 43:10, 1 Tim 2:5).

Having defined the Christian doctrine of the Trinity, it becomes necessary, secondly, to demonstrate inductively from the Bible that it is true.

To accomplish this, we begin with one basic premise: If it can be shown from Scripture that there are three persons, all of whom are called Jehovah (God), then, since there is only one Jehovah (Isa. 44:6, 48:12), those three Persons are the one God. Things equal to the same thing are equal to each other.

Just how it is possible for three to be One and for that One to be three, will also be explained. But first, the evidence:

1. THE FATHER IS JEHOVAH

Jehovah's Witnesses are quick to agree with the Apostle Peter that the Father is called Jehovah. Moreover, Peter and many other Biblical writers identify Him as a "person" (2 Peter 1:17). It is therefore unnecessary to press this point, the Witnesses having already conceded it.

However, we would point out that the word "person" is, by definition, descriptive of "ego" or "I." Without "ego," which distinguishes man from the beast, personality as such would cease to exist. Any reputable lexicon of Greek dictionary will substantiate the fact that the Greek word "ego," is the basis for our English term, "I." Jehovah designates His Being as The Great I AM (Ex. 3:14): So the Deity is Personal and possesses Ego, the hallmark of Personality.

We see, then, that one of the three "Persons" - the Father - is designated "God."

2. THE SON IS JEHOVAH

A careful study of the first chapter of Revelation (vs. 11-18) will show that Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, identifies Himself as "the first and the last" and "the one who became dead" and who now lives for all eternity.

It is of no small significance that in verse 13 of the last chapter of Revelation, He confirms this title with great emphasis, identifying Himself in verse 16 as "I Jesus," and declaring that He is "the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last." The context reveals that it is Jesus speaking (vs. 12), for He - not the Father - is coming "quickly" (Rev. 1:7; 1 Thess. 4:15,16).

It must never be forgotten that these titles ("the first and the last," "the Alpha and the Omega'" "the beginning and the end") belong only to Jehovah God (Isa. 44:6,8; Rev. 1:8, 21:6). But Jesus Christ claims them as His own, because He, the Son is also Jehovah!

We see, then, that there are either two firsts and two lasts (a hopeless contradiction of terms), or the Son is Jehovah, the one who was pierced for our sins (Zech. 12:10; Rev. 1:7,11,13) and who is truly "the fullness of Jehovah in flesh" (Col. 2:9).

The angel who showed John the wonder Revelation forbade the Apostle to worship him, for he was but a created being, a "fellow servant." Quite properly, he declared, "worship Jehovah," (Rev. 22:9). Yet Jesus Christ, whom Jehovah's Witnesses say is also a created being (i.e., Michael the Archangel), commended the worship of Himself as Jehovah (John 20:28,29). This would have been a blasphemous act of presumption on His part and a direct violation of His Father's commandments (Ex. 20:3; Deut. 6:17), unless He were in some mysterious sense on in Nature and Being with His Father. In such a case He would in truth be "equal with God" and entitled to receive worship as Jehovah(John 5:18,23).

Jehovah's Witnesses have always taught that Jesus Christ was no more than a perfect man, "certainly not the supreme God Almighty in the flesh."3 They state categorically that He was in no sense both God and man. Some insist that Jesus while on earth was both God and man. This theory is wrong.4

Jehovah's Witnesses also maintain that our Lord was "the first and direct creation of Jehovah God," and that prior to His earthly life He was an angel.5

In contrast to this teaching, Scripture and the Christian Church declare the full Deity of Jesus Christ, and His equality with God the Father.

In the first verse of John's Gospel, Christ is revealed as the eternal Word of God who became flesh (verse 14) - the "image of God" (2 Corinthians 4:4).

Consider the emphasis "in the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God" John 1:1).

Note that John 1:1 states that the Word already was in the beginning - it does not say the Word "became" or "was created" by God, as Jehovah's Witnesses teach. The Witness incorrectly translate this text to read "the Word was a god,"6 but their translation is by both context and grammar an impossibility according to all recognized authorities on Greek. No recognized translation bears out their error.

Moreover, the Scriptures proclaim that Christ made "himself equal with God" (John 5:18), and that "in him dwelleth all the fullness of the Deity bodily" (Colossians 2:9). The Bible further states that Christ claimed to be the great I AM (Jehovah) of the Old Testament (cf. Exodus 3:13-16 with John 8:58), and the Jews understood Him so clearly during His ministry that they sought to stone Him to death for blasphemy (John 8:59; cf. 10:28-33).

Jehovah's Witnesses pervert these texts and many others in their determined effort to demote our Lord from His position of God and Creator (Colossians 1; Hebrews 1); and they compound their error by translating the Greek of the New Testament, in many places, contrary to all grammatical authorities. It is certainly true that during His earthly life our Lord voluntarily limited Himself as a man (Philippians 2:6-8), and thus He never strove to usurp the prerogatives of Deity; But one does not have to "rob" what is His by inheritance (Hebrews 1). He was true Deity - "the great God" (Titus 2:13).

We must not forget that Christ humbled Himself, even to the death of the cross, and therefore, as a man, could say, "My Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). However, let us remember that Christ never said, "My Father is better than I." "Better" is a term of comparison between natures (Heb 1:4), while "greater," as in the context of John 14, is a term of comparison relative to positions.

The President of the United States, for instance, is greater in position than any of his fellow-Americans by virtue of his office, but he would be the first to insist that he is not better than other human beings. So Christ was admittedly inferior to His Father positionally while on earth as a man, but the Scriptures clearly and unmistakably state that he was at all times His Father's equal on the spiritual plane of Divine Being or Nature (Heb. 1:3; John 5:18). Note also that in 1 Corinthians 15:28 it is function that is dealt with - not Deity.

Jehovah's Witnesses always point to Christ's humanity in the Bible; they carefully omit mention of His claim to full Deity, and they thus "wrest...the...scriptures, unto their own destruction" (2 Peter 3:16).

The second Person, the Son, is also called God, then, despite the efforts of the Watchtower to prove the contrary.

3. THE HOLY SPIRIT IS JEHOVAH

It is peculiar, to say the least, that Jehovah's Witnesses can agree with the Apostle Peter when he declared that the Father is Jehovah - and then contradict his affirmation that the Holy Spirit is likewise Jehovah, as recorded in Acts 5:3 and 4.

No Christian theologian has ever denied either the Person or Deity of the Holy Spirit, for the evidence to substantiate both is abundant in Scripture. For instance, a thorough study of the book of Acts, chapter thirteen, reveals that the Holy Spirit is a Person, because He possesses "ego." Luke records therein that the Holy Spirit as a Person has "ego" (13:2,4) and, furthermore, that He (not "it") prophesies to His servants and commissions them, as well (21:11). See also such verses as John 14:26, 15:26, Acts 8:29, 13:2, and Romans 5:5.

The Scriptures are clear that the Holy Spirit has a "will" (1 Cor. 12:11; Heb. 2:4), and since "will" denotes "ego" or personality, as opposed to the neuter (animals), obviously the Spirit is a person. We have also seen from Peter's words that when Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit, he lied to Jehovah (Acts 5:4). Both the thirteenth chapter of Acts and Isaiah 48 add to the proof that the Holy Spirit is God, since He answers the prayers of the Apostles (Acts 13:1-4) and is designated Deity by the prophet Isaiah (48:16). Even the Watchtower admits that God alone answers prayer.

The Bible, then, does indeed teach that the Spirit is a Person and that He is called God. It is therefore apparent that there are three Persons mentioned in Scripture and that they are all identified as God: Yet there is only one true God (Isa. 45:22).

"LORDS MANY AND GODS MANY"

There are two other important points that must be mentioned.

Jehovah's Witnesses claim that, because the Bible designates some beings and idols as "gods," it is proper for them to call Jesus "a god" and worship him as the angels did (Heb. 1:6). This is an important point and must be clarified.

Of course, it is true that God made Moses appear as a god in Pharaoh's eyes (Exodus 7:1). Moreover, Satan, certain of the judges of Israel and pagan idols are described as "gods" in the Bible (John 14:30, Psalms 82:6, 1 Cor. 8:4, 10:19, 2 Cor. 4:4). Nevertheless, they are not deity by nature, as the Apostle Paul flatly states (Gal. 4:8). They are "gods" by angelic or human acclamation, and God addresses them in that context. Worshiping a thing can make it your god; but it is not God by nature - for by nature there is only one God (1 Cor. 8:4-6, 1 Tim. 2:5).

When this cardinal distinction is made in Scripture, the Watchtower's doctrine is refuted, and the problem of the usage of the term "gods" or "a god" disappears.

COMPOSITE UNITY AND THE TRIPLE POINT

The second important fact to be remembered is that of the meaning of the term "one."

"How is it possible," say the Jehovah's witnesses, "for Jehovah to be three and one both at the same time? It is illogical, unreasonable and confusing; and God is not the author of confusion!"

To answer this all-too-common objection, it should be kept in mind that the word "one" can denote composite as well as solitary unity. For instance, in Genesis (chapter 2), Adam and Eve are called one flesh; and Numbers (chapter 13) speaks of "one" when the context indicates that is was in reality a cluster of grapes hanging from one stem. Here are bona fide instances of composite unity.

The same Hebrew word, "echod" (one) is used in both cases, however, even as it is in Deuteronomy 6:4 where we are told that God is "One." The evident composite unity indicated here is confirmed in the New Testament. Our Lord spoke of composite unity where marriage is concerned (Mk. 10:8); so He, too, was aware of this important distinction. See also Joshua 9:2; Judges 20:1; 2 Chron. 30:12; Isaiah 65:25; Nehemiah 7:66 and Ezra 6:20 for further instances of composite unity.

Finally, let us illustrate how it is both logically and rationally possible for three to be one and one to be three simultaneously, since Jehovah's Witnesses do NOT believe this is possible.

It is a well-known fact of chemistry that plain water, when placed in a vacuum under 230 millimeters of gas pressure and at a temperature of 0 degrees Centigrade, solidifies into ice at the bottom of the container, remains liquid in the center and vaporizes at the top! At a given instant the same water is both solid, liquid and gas, yet all three are manifestations of the same basic substance or nature: H2O - hydrogen: two parts; oxygen: one.

If one of the simplest of all created substances can be three in manifested form and yet remain one in nature, then the Creator of that substance can surely be Father, Son and Holy Spirit - three Persons and one Nature - without any violation of logic or reason whatever if He so wills.

God is not triples (1+1+1) - He is triune (1x1x1), and He has revealed Himself fully in the Person of our Lord, Jesus Christ (Col. 2:9; John 14:9).

Jehovah's Witnesses are not confused by the doctrine of the Trinity they are confused by the Watchtower Society, from whose power only the Son of God can liberate. It is our prayer that, in His own time, this will come to pass - "for ye shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free...and if the Son shall make you free, you shall be free indeed." (John 8:32,36).

Once the foregoing data have been understood, the following texts from the Old and New Testament confirm the doctrine of the Trinity. A prayerful reading of these passages will help strengthen your faith in this great and truly divine revelation of the Nature of God. It will promote faith in Him "who is able to save to the uttermost all who come to Him by faith," since He alone is "the Way," (Heb. 7:25; John 14:6; Acts 16:31; 1 John 2:2; Romans 10:9-13).

FOOTNOTES: 1. Let God Be True, Watchtower Society, Edition 1946, pp. 81, 82, 87, Reconciliation J.W. Rutherford, p. 115. 2. The Trinity, Baker's Dictionary of Theology, p 115. 3. Let God Be True, p. 87 4. The Truth Shall Make You Free, Watchtower Society, p. 49, The Harp of God, J.W. Rutherford, pp. 101, 128. 5. The Kingdom Is At Hand, pp. 46, 47-49. 6. Let God Be True, pp. 34, 35.

TRINITY TEXTS: (1) Old Testament Hints - Genesis 1:26, Genesis 3:22, Genesis 11:7, Isaiah 6:8, 48:12, Zech. 12:9,10. (2) The Creation - Genesis 1:2, In 1:3. (3) The Incarnation - Lk. 1:35. (4) The Baptism of Christ - Matt. 3:17,17. (5) The Resurrection of Christ - Acts 2:26, 1 Thess. 1:10 (The Father), Jn 2:19-21, (The Son), Rom. 8:11, 1 Pet 3:18 (The Holy Spirit), Acts 17:31 (God). (6) The Great Commission - Matt. 28:19. (7) The Divine Benediction - 2 Cor. 13:14. See also John 14:16,26, 15:26.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Evangelical Christian; Ministry/Outreach; Theology
KEYWORDS: jdubs; jehovahswitnesses; jws; witnesses
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To: rom
You are saying something really weird here.

It is the Bible that says Jesus did not think it robbery to be 'equal' to God, not me...so you are saying that the bible is wierd.

Figures.

I am not claiming that Jesus is God or a God at all and am very clear on that.

The Bible tells of a great number of witnesses who testified that Jesus is the Son of God...as well as God Almighty Himself.

So When I say that Jesus is the Son of God, I am agreeing with God and you cannot find any fault in that at all...but when you say that Jesus is God...well God says something different.

God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should repent...yet Jesus was/is a man and the son of man.

No man has seen God at any time...God is in visible..God is spirit....Jesus was the visible representation of the invisible God and many many people saw Jesus..yet no man has seen God at any time..per the Bible!

Jesus was tempte in all ways...God cannot be tempted with evil....

Jesus died for our sins...God cannot die

In the beginning God created heavens and earth...Jesus had a Genesis (beginning) documented in the Gospels.

Jesus and God are not the same and Jesus is not God. They are different.

41 posted on 06/03/2009 12:14:00 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (When they came for GM I did nothing because I was not a car dealer....)
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To: rom
What sect are you from?

I read my Bible. I understand what I read.

Last church denomination I attended was Baptist. But you can see the problems there...that and I don't believe that water baptism proves or accomplishes a darn thing.

42 posted on 06/03/2009 12:21:36 PM PDT by Eagle Eye (When they came for GM I did nothing because I was not a car dealer....)
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To: Eagle Eye

So then Jesus couldn’t have created anything, since he was a created being is that your stance?

Because ..., see if He wasn’t from the beginning and He wasn’t God ... He naturally couldn’t have created anything.

And what does Paul mean when he said that he ‘emptied himself’ and became a ‘bond-servant’?

If He was merely God’s Spirit in man (a claim the heretical Gnostics made) then He wouldn’t be emptying Himself, He would be FILLING a man.

And why does Paul want us to bend our knee to Him? And why does Thomas not qualify as a Baal worshiper?

John 20:28 Thomas answered and said to Him, “My Lord and my God!”

Again, what sect are you from?


43 posted on 06/03/2009 12:21:51 PM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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To: Eagle Eye
.yet no man has seen God at any time..

John 14:7 disagrees with that statement.

44 posted on 06/03/2009 12:22:39 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Eagle Eye

Sorry. I ask you the same question again about ‘sects’ later. I myself am non-denominational but go to a church. Do you go to a church or have a house-church or anything?


45 posted on 06/03/2009 12:23:15 PM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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To: Eagle Eye
God is not a man that he should lie nor the son of man that he should repent...yet Jesus was/is a man and the son of man.

Are you saying that Jesus lied? That He had something to repent of?

46 posted on 06/03/2009 12:25:58 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Eagle Eye

I don’t think water baptism is anything more than a sign of Obedience to our Lord — not necessary for salvation.

I had felt the Holy Spirit tug at me to get baptized. Ever since I followed and was Obedient, I was able to read my Bible with a clarity I had never had before.

Keep in mind, I’ve been a Christian for about 7 months now. So you are discussing this with a newbie. Though, I do not believe that dismisses any of the topics of discussion we are having.

I just wanted to let you know my own personal experience with baptisms. I do think Romans 6 has something interesting things to consider about it.

I treated it like the early church did. That it was an outward profession of faith. It told the world that I am a Christian, told my Hindu parents that they were no longer going to see their son as anything but a Christian and that I would walk with Him to the end of my days on Earth.

That’s what my baptism was for me. I already knew I was saved before I got baptized.


47 posted on 06/03/2009 12:31:14 PM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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To: rom
Exactly.

Jesus Himself was baptized. Why should we not do something that He Himself did? He sets the example--we should follow it.

48 posted on 06/03/2009 12:33:07 PM PDT by ShadowAce (Linux -- The Ultimate Windows Service Pack)
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To: Eagle Eye
Trinitarians are modern baal worshippers.

ROTFLMTO

49 posted on 06/03/2009 12:40:51 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: rom; Eagle Eye; Ezekiel
Why then are the non-Trinitarians the fringe element of Christianity?

For the same reason the Roman Catholics and Protestants are the Mainstream! [Matthew 24:4-5] And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many.

The early Church preached not one word about a Trinity of three eternal personages. The Old scriptures were all based upon the oneness of the Godhead. After the Apostles died the post Apostolic age brought Clement, Ignatius, Polycarp and Hermas. Not one word about a so called Trinity was offered in the writings of these folks.

After the Greek Apologists entered the scene is when this pagan concept of a Trinity begins to emerge (AD 130/180). The reason for this was the determination of the meaning of the Greek word "Logos". In Greek philosophy, prior to the first Century, the concept of a "Logos" was taught and it meant a subservient divine entity to God. This concept is not what Trinitarians of today believe, but that's what the Greeks who entered Christianity in the mid second century believed and taught. This is where the first roots of the Trinity emerge and you can see this by the modification of baptismal rites where The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit are invoked.....rather then the Biblical formula we find in [Acts 2:38][8:16][10:48]and [19:5].

These were the main points described in the Greek philosophy of that time (mid second century).

1. The Logos was a second divine person

2. The Logos was begotten before the creation.

3. The Logos was the Son of God.

4. A baptismal formula should now mention three entities, because.........

5. The Holy Spirit somehow links The Father to The Son.

They were trying to reconcile the "Godhead" plurality issue in Genesis and the "Trinity" doctrine had not yet been invented by the Catholics. The next age of the church began about AD 175 and went on to Nicaea in AD 325.

Many commentators of this age still referred to the oneness doctrine held by most believers but the popularity of the Trinity began to gain foothold. Tertullian was the first Church Father to refer to a Trinity about the year 200. He originally was a Binatarian but had picked from the Montanists that the "Paraclete" was something more than what he had originally thought. He had long thought it was just a "Thing" but as he grew older he began thinking it was a third eternal person in the Godhead.

Origen (185/254 AD) believed souls preexisted, as did the Greeks of that day. He also believed that Satan would eventually be forgiven and saved. In addition he believed that Jesus was the first born of The Father and The Holy Spirit linked these two together.

During this age most writers indicated that The Son was still inferior to The Father but the Trinity concept eventually won out (Three co equal Eternal People) during the fourth century, mainly because of the efforts of Athanasius' (his view was prominent at Nicaea) and became official Church dogma at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.

In order to accept the Trinity Doctrine one must believe what the Catholic Church teaches about it.....as that is where it originated in its present form. They declare that the Apostles did not have all the truths about God and that the Church formulated doctrines after the scriptures were canonized. These things are now to be considered as important as the Biblical truths we find in scripture. Since the Trinity is not explicitly taught in scripture, but formulated later on.....it nevertheless must be considered true because the Church.....says its true!

Bottom line: To support the idea of a three in one Godhead you must use terms not found in the Bible; Rely on false scripture based upon twisted interpretations that contradict extremely clear scriptures; And a convoluted theory must be created that no one really understands, that forces its adherents to declare it a mystery!

50 posted on 06/03/2009 3:36:41 PM PDT by Diego1618 (Put "Ron" on the rock!)
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To: Diego1618

Matthew 28:19

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,


51 posted on 06/03/2009 3:46:40 PM PDT by rom (Obama '12 slogan: Let's keep on hopin'!)
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To: Diego1618; Eagle Eye
Bottom line: To support the idea of a three in one Godhead you must use terms not found in the Bible; Rely on false scripture based upon twisted interpretations that contradict extremely clear scriptures; And a convoluted theory must be created that no one really understands, that forces its adherents to declare it a mystery!

Hashem warned and warned and warned about serving ONLY Him, and that He is the only God and that He is ONE. You'd think a red flag would go up about a doctrine stating that He is actually three-in-one, and that there is "evidence" from the Hebrew Scriptures.

Hashem is a real piece of work if out of one side of His mouth He makes it abundantly clear in - no uncertain terms -that He is ONE, yet out of the other side expects His people (who are highly prone to idolatry anyway) to "get" that He is actually three-in-one. No, there's nothing wrong with Hashem - this confusing and contradictory gnostic mumbo-jumbo is not from Him. When traditional Christianity makes use of its cult-fighting baseball bat to beat down true monotheists, it's evidence of a severe case of projection. The trinity is a broad road, a triple-lane highway to the middle of the desert. Good luck to those in need of a gas station.

52 posted on 06/03/2009 4:36:45 PM PDT by Ezekiel (The Obama-nation began with the Inauguration of Desolation.)
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To: rom; Eagle Eye; Ezekiel
[Matthew 28:19] Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

There has always been considerable confusion about this verse and its instruction. Does it really validate a Trinity? Is God really three persons?

All three entities have a name....but does this mean they are persons? All kinds of things have names. I have a rifle, for instance.....I've always called 'ole Betsy......but it's not a person. Cars, mountains, cities, rivers....all kinds of things have names. Just because Matthew assigns a name for each does not mean that all three are persons.

What does it mean to be baptized in the name of The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit? The Father and The Son have names....and The Holy Spirit conveys that name to The Father's children. The disciples were to baptize in The Father's name as The Father is whom the entire family is heaven is named for [Ephesians 3:15]. The Father is the head of the house.....i.e. the family, and families traditionally carry the name of their Father. It is His goodness that leads us to repentance of our sins [Romans 2:4].

The Apostles were also to baptize in the name of The Son because it was His death that made our salvation possible [Romans 5:8]. They also were to baptize in the name of The Holy Spirit because that's the power through which the begettal is performed [Romans 8:16]. The Holy Spirit is the begetting agent.

God gives Christians His Holy Spirit....His seed. When received they now have God's name and they become heirs with Jesus Christ [Romans 8:17]. From that point of conversion they carry the name of God. They are part of His family. That's why the Bible called the first Century church, "The Church of God". The word in Greek is Ekklesia and literally means "Called out ones". They are human beings, called out of this world, begotten as God's children, put into His Church and given His name.

Here's what John said about the seed of converted folks. [I John 3:9] Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God. The Greek word here for seed is "Sperma". This makes it very plain indeed that The Holy Spirit is the seed of God.

53 posted on 06/03/2009 7:02:58 PM PDT by Diego1618 (Put "Ron" on the rock!)
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To: Diego1618
that the Church formulated doctrines after the scriptures were canonized.

The Trinity wasn't one of those doctrines.

During this age most writers indicated that The Son was still inferior to The Father

The Son is inferior to the Father in his humanity while he walked the earth, but he cannot be inferior in his divinity, because there's no such thing as "inferior divinity". He's either God or he ain't.

but the Trinity concept eventually won out (Three co equal Eternal People)

Persons, not "people". And you're forgetting that they're three persons in one substance, which means they're one God. (Substance is the "what," person is the "who". You are one person in one substance. A rock is zero persons in one substance. God is three persons in one substance.)

during the fourth century, mainly because of the efforts of Athanasius' (his view was prominent at Nicaea) and became official Church dogma at the Council of Constantinople in 381 AD.

The creed promulgated at Nicaea was explicitly Trinitarian insofar as it clearly taught the co-equal divinity of the Son with the Father. If that's where you depart from orthodoxy, you departed pretty early.

"Farewell always in our God Jesus Christ." -- Ignatius to Polycarp, AD 110

54 posted on 06/03/2009 7:15:06 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Diego1618
And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption. --Ephesians 4:30

Pretty hard to "grieve" something that's not a person.

55 posted on 06/03/2009 8:31:22 PM PDT by Campion ("President Barack Obama" is an anagram for "An Arab-backed Imposter")
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To: Diego1618

Oh wait, let me get this straight:

You deny the Holy Trinity too?

Really?


56 posted on 06/03/2009 8:33:41 PM PDT by Petronski (In Germany they came first for the Communists, And I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Communist...)
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To: Campion

Thank you for your comments.....my Friend.


57 posted on 06/03/2009 8:44:44 PM PDT by Diego1618 (Put "Ron" on the rock!)
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To: ShadowAce
John 14:7 disagrees with that statement.

Then YOU are in the position of stating the the Bible contradicts itself.

God is invisible...no man hath seen God at any time...God is spirit!

You claim that the Bible contradicts itself. How does that feel? What do you think about that?

58 posted on 06/04/2009 12:08:27 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (When they came for GM I did nothing because I was not a car dealer....)
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To: rom
“My Lord and my God!”

You have a terrible understanding of Biblican figures of speech...this is one called hendiadys as well as a terrible understanding of the role and function of Jesus.

Jesus REPRESENTS God...is the VISIBLE image of the INVISIBLE God...who acts in God's stead.

We cannot know God apart from Christ, we must go to Christ to get God...he and God are so unified in purpose and Christ is such a precise representation of God that to see him is to see God...that we canno worship God without worshipping Christ we cannot respect God without respecting Christ.

Jesus is still subordinate to God. Believers subordinate themselves to Christ as an act of obedience to God.

Failure to understand and respect Jesus' place sitting at the right hand of God shows a failure to understand and respect the authority of God.

In the beginning GOD...not Jesus...created.

So simple a child could understand it.

The trinity takes brainwashing to believe...to take clear verses that say there is one God and that one God is one and then turn right around and say that God is THREE!!

Isreal was fooled by baal worship because it resembled Jehova worship so closely. Baal and other similar dieties are plural gods. Jehova is a single unified God. God is ONE.

59 posted on 06/04/2009 12:24:48 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (When they came for GM I did nothing because I was not a car dealer....)
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To: Petronski; Diego1618
Can you please show me the word Trinity in the Bible?

No, you can't, it isn't there. Maybe there is a good reason for its absence?

To support the idea of a three in one Godhead you must use terms not found in the Bible; Rely on false scripture based upon twisted interpretations that contradict extremely clear scriptures; And a convoluted theory must be created that no one really understands, that forces its adherents to declare it a mystery!

60 posted on 06/04/2009 2:43:25 AM PDT by Eagle Eye (When they came for GM I did nothing because I was not a car dealer....)
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