Exploring the New God Argument by the Mormon Transhuman Association

Salt Lake City Freethinking Examiner ^ | May 24, 2009 | Jonathan Montgomery

[Old Mountain man]

You still haven’t proved every word is faithful to the ORIGINAL manuscripts. I don’t have to prove anything.

[Old Mountain man]

Looks like you are guilty of trying to read God’s mind. I understand that is your theological interpretation. You and I were not there to here Him say what He said to whoever he said it to. Of course, the trinitarian theory appears to make Jesus an idiot for praying to Himself.

[ejonesie22]

Don’t forget the Angels and the other heavenly hosts...

[Colofornian]

22 And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil."

Take your pick: Some commentators believe God was referencing the family of heaven -- as this all happened after some angels sinned, thus the clan of angels then knew both good and evil. Therefore, "us" could be both God and His angels -- and He could have been speaking to His angels.

More commentators believe God is speaking of Himself -- a diverse Personhood within the unity of one God. Trinitarians have no problem with the concept of "us" within the Godhood -- as God is a compound unity and our world is a diversity-within-unity.

Look around you, the world is full of that arrangement! Having plural species of animals doesn't negate the oneness of the animal world, does it? Having two genders doesn't negate the oneness of humankind, does it?

Let's face it, before angels existed an "us" AND a "Him" existed simultaneously! Love is social. The "diversity" of God is the "us" -- the social -- the relational component of Who He is. The Oneness of God is the unity; the bonding; the 3-cord rope that can't be separated; the intimacy; the single nature.

(Besides, OMM, even Mormons say there's an "us" in the one "Godhead"...so even Mormons try to at times sound a bit "trinitarian" 'cause it makes them appear more orthodox and it helps explain key NT passages...and the Book of Mormon is chalk full of trinitarian passages!)

[colorcountry]

Let him who has ears, hear.

[SkyDancer]

My point exactly - who created the god that created man who became god? My head hurts ....

[ejonesie22]

Easy, it was god's dad.

His friends called him Scott, at least before he became a god himself, then any time they saw him they would just say “oh lord”...

I am working on the revelation about when he coached god jr’s soccer team...

(Hey if they can do it...)

[Colofornian]

My point exactly - who created the god that created man who became god? My head hurts [SkyDancer]

Easy, it was god's dad.

(And lds have the gall to ask us where we get our authority?)

Questions for Lds:

Q. Where did this Elohim get his authority?
(According to LDS theology, he got it from his god)
Q. Where did his god get it from?
(Elohim's god got authority from Elohim's grand-god).
Q. Where did Elohim's grand-god get his authority from? (He got it from Elohim's great grand-god).
Q. Allow me to save some space and then simply ask: What LDS god has ultimate authority, ultimate divine buck-stops-here authority, to wield and yield?

[The answer is, that no matter how many supposed divine generations in search of ultimate priesthood authority, there is none in LDSism. No LDS god has ultimate authority. Not only to grant priesthood authority, but anything. No ultimate authority exists because no ultimate, eternally sourced (meaning from Eternity past) divine being exists in Joseph Smith's theological structure. You see, every known LDS god is an ex-mortal, and every known potential future Lds god is a present mortal. That is lds "prophet" Snow's couplet in a nutshell.]

So, folks, the next time some LDS person cites his priesthood authority as the basis for his actions, just "go over his head." Just say, "I challenge your actions as unauthorized acts" of the ultimate LDS god. Your lower-level LDS god has no authority to tell you to do anything, because he honors no one himself as an ultimate god...because if you're silent about such a god, where's the tribute or honor in that?

[Logophile]

It seems to me that some of these "transhumanist" beliefs align themselves quite well with Lds thought. (Partially agree? Disagree? Why?)

First a disclaimer: I had never heard of the MTA before reading this thread. What little I know of their beliefs comes from their website. Thus far, I would say that Transhumanism is not a good fit with Mormonism.

Let's examine the the first point of their Affirmation:

(1) We seek the spiritual and physical exaltation of individuals and their anatomies, as well as communities and their environments, according to their wills, desires and laws, to the extent they are not oppressive.

Exaltation is a term familiar to Mormons. It means eternal life with God. I am not sure what the MTA means by exaltation. (What is exaltation of "anatomies"?)

Apparently, the transhumanists' version of exaltation may be attained according to human "wills, desires and laws." In contrast, Mormonism is clear that we must obey God's will, desires and laws if we are to live with him. Consider, for instance, the third and fourth Articles of Faith:

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

The second point of the MTA Affirmation at least mentions God in passing:

(2) We believe that scientific knowledge and technological power are among the means ordained of God to enable such exaltation, including realization of diverse prophetic visions of transfiguration, immortality, resurrection, renewal of this world, and the discovery and creation of worlds without end.

Mormons have traditionally had a great appreciation for science and technology, but I doubt that many would agree that scientists will discover the secret of resurrection, immortality, or transfiguration, not to mention exaltation. We place our hope in Jesus Christ, not technology.

I actually took the time to listen to the presentation by Cal Youngblood, a director of the MTA, that is posted on their web site. Commenting on the second point of the Affirmation (about 55:20), he notes that science and technology are "among the means ordained of God." Youngblood goes on to say:

There are other means ordained of God as well, such as charity, faith, hope, other things like to that.

Youngblood seems to be saying that science and technology are alternatives to faith, hope, and charity, something that is antithetical to Mormonism. He reinforces this impression later (about 60:13):

There is also a conflict that I have between bearing one's cross and sacrificing now for a greater future . . . versus the fulfillment and possibly even the indulgence that might result from these technological improvements. . . . There are some things we can't fix right now and we have to still be willing to bear our crosses.

If I understand his point, Youngblood is proposing that technological improvements can take the place of bearing one's cross, and other old-fashioned notions such as faith, hope, and charity. That is definitely not Mormonism as I understand it.

I started listening to Cannon and West's presentation, but lost interest after about 12 minutes. They admit early on that their argument is aimed toward atheists and almost entirely avoids religious language. That accords with my earlier impression, that the MTA is more Transhumanist than Mormon.

[Colofornian]

Thank you for taking the time to do an "under-the-hood" inspection.

On the surface, there seems to be some MTA-Lds overlaps...but appears to be plenty of fork-in-the-road divergences.

[Old Mountain man]

Too bad you don’t get it.

[ejonesie22]

If I didn’t get it it would not be a bad thing really.

Sadly I do get it, all too well...

[Elsie]

Oh, yeah, I forgot. They are all gone.

Do the NON-English versions of the BoM compare favorably to the original Golden Plates?

Oh; I forgot - the ANGEL took them away!!

[Elsie]

 

Can you prove it is?

 

Not our call...

 

---

 

Articles of Faith

The Articles of Faith outline 13 basic points of belief of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
The Prophet Joseph Smith first wrote them in a letter to John Wentworth, a newspaper editor,
in response to Mr. Wentworth's request to know what members of the Church believed.
They were subsequently published in Church periodicals.
They are now regarded as scripture and included in the Pearl of Great Price.

 

 

 

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS
History of the Church, Vol. 4, pp. 535—541

 

 

1. We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.
   
2. We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam's transgression.
   
3. We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
   
4. We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.
   
5. We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.
   
6. We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.
   
7. We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.
   
8. We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.
   
9. We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.
   
10. We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.
    
11. We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.
    
12. We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.
    
13. We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

 

 

[Elsie]

Why, then, would Lds also offer free KJV Bibles in TV commercials like they have? (That, too, is rather odd.)

It's not ODD if you are trying to imply that you might actually BELIEVE the stuff that is written there...

[Elsie]

Would the LDS then be guilty of knowingly distributing defective merchandise?

You misunderstand; Gentile.

The bible is the milk of Christianity.

The Book of Mormon (pbui) and the REST of our Standard Works® are the MEAT of Christianity.

--MormonDupe(I just LOVE reading MY BoM when trying to go to sleep!)

[Elsie]

Perhaps you can tell us exactly how it isn’t translated correctly since you are the one denigrating God’s Holy Bible.

Sorry, ANTI; but OMM is NOT the one you should be asking this question of; but our Glorious Leader and Founder; Joseph Smith.

--MormonDupe(Praise to the MAN!)

[Elsie]

Let him who has ears, hear.

Let him who has brains; think!

[Elsie]

On the surface, there seems to be some MTA-Lds overlaps...but appears to be plenty of fork-in-the-road divergences.

LDS(Salt Lake) and FLDS(Texas) have a 99.999% overlap.

[elcid1970]

If Jesus and Lucifer are brothers, do they exchange cards at Smithmastime?

;^)