Was the Sabbath kept before God gave the Ten Commandments?

Biblstudy.org ^ | unknown | Sabbath Research Center

[Zionist Conspirator]

G-d Himself wrote the Torah 974 generations before the Creation of the Universe. It was then dictated to Moses letter-for-letter in the 26th generation of the world and Moses wrote it down.

The "Ten Commandments" (`Aseret HaDibberot) do not and have never applied to non-Jews, who are bound by the Seven Noachide Laws.

[geologist]

We Christians ...are grafted in to the root... of the teaching about god ,His commandments, His instructions on how to live an obedient life to please Him: (being God’s covenants, promises and Jesus (the expected Messiah)fulfilled the law, and brought liberty by His Spirit.

We honor and love the whole Bible. It is the Word of God.

Have you read the New Testament? Read it for yourself and find the lies, distortions, false teaching in it ... (there aren’t any). Not a light reading with an already made up mind. Rather a thoughtful study of the old testament Torah along side it.

Peace. May God be with you. Sorry this may not be as clear as I intended. Huge subject.

[Quix]

I think I understand your perspective.

[geologist]

God

[OneVike]

That's what is going on here. The author is trying leverage his own credibility into slamming your mind shut on all other notions. After all, if someone is a liar, it'd be morally hazardous to listen to him.

Excellent point. I have begun an exhaustive study of God's Sabbath rest and how Christ is in actuality that rest we look forward to. I will be doing an article on it and when I do, I will need you and others to be on board to help defeat the sabbatarians who are bent upon trashing Christ's fulfillment of the OT ceremonial laws.

[OneVike]

I have begun an exhaustive study of God’s Sabbath rest and how Christ is in actuality that rest we look forward to. I have my articles published weekly on Christian topics and I always post a link here at FR for the discussions.

I will be doing an article how we are no longer under the old law and the observation of a seventh day Sabbath is among those that we are not bound by. As I have told dangus in an earlier comment, I will need you and others to be on board to help defeat the sabbatarians who are hell bent upon trashing Christ’s fulfillment of the OT ceremonial laws.

I will ping you when I get it completed, and if you have anything you could send my way for my investigation that might be helpful I would appreciate it.

Your brother in Christ; OV

[Zionist Conspirator]

Have you read the New Testament?

Yep.

Read it for yourself and find the lies, distortions, false teaching in it ... (there aren’t any). Not a light reading with an already made up mind. Rather a thoughtful study of the old testament Torah along side it.

That's the problem. You accept the "new testament" a priori and insist the "two testaments" should be studied side by side. If you did not assume this, if you would read the Chumash without these presuppositions, you would see just how much of your beliefs are groundless presumption.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I think I understand your perspective.

I'm not sure about that (if you understood, I believe you would acknowledge the Noachide Laws instead of chr*stianity), but I believe you have made an honest attempt to understand, and for that I thank you.

[Quix]

You’re welcome.

I do try and give honest points a fair-minded hearing.

Certainly I take things to Scripture and to God.

[DouglasKC]

Israel's mission is to compel the nations of the world to observe the Seven Noachide Laws. And those laws forbid complete Shabbat observance, as Jews practice it, to non-Jews.
Does scripture tell you this or does tradition tell you this?
So, since Scripture commands that some sacrifices be "heaved" and some others be "waved" (and even sometimes that "people" be "waved") but doesn't say a word about how this is done, where do you suppose those instructions are located?

So this:

"Israel's mission is to compel the nations of the world to observe the Seven Noachide Laws. And those laws forbid complete Shabbat observance, as Jews practice it, to non-Jews."

is a view based on tradition. Thank you. I didn't think I had read anything in scripture to support this notion.

[DouglasKC]

I will be doing an article on it and when I do, I will need you and others to be on board to help defeat the sabbatarians who are bent upon trashing Christ's fulfillment of the OT ceremonial laws.

You're going to have a tough time. The sabbath isn't a ceremonial law, but is a moral, eternal law because it was created holy in the beginning:

Gen 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were finished, and all the host of them.
Gen 2:2 And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made; and he rested on the seventh day from all his work which he had made.
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it: because that in it he had rested from all his work which God created and made.

If you're going to rely strictly on scripture you can only come away with the conclusion that the sabbath was never made "unholy". Jesus Christ, the Lord, never changed HIS sabbath. However if you want to make your case based on culture, history and human reasoning you'll have a much easier time.

[freeplancer]

“But concerning the 7th day sabbath it’s pretty clear when it is:”

OMG, you people are funny. I don’t seem to see the word “Sunday” or “Saturday” in that scripture, but to you it is so clear. Maybe that is why NO TWO religions can agree on “what the bible says”. While you are at it, please explain the book of Revelations to me.

[DouglasKC]

OMG, you people are funny. I don’t seem to see the word “Sunday” or “Saturday” in that scripture, but to you it is so clear.

You will find those words in some translations, but in the old and new testament scriptures the day we call "Saturday" is called either the sabbath, the 7th day or some other designation. I think if asked God for guidance and truth and undertook a sincere study of scripture He will show you the truth.

Maybe that is why NO TWO religions can agree on “what the bible says”.

There IS a lot of confusion in religion. This is due primarily to the influence of satan.

While you are at it, please explain the book of Revelations to me.

There are many resources available on the web where you can study this topic. I would recommend starting with The Book Of Revelation - Unveiled.

Good luck and God bless in your study.

[Zionist Conspirator]

"Israel's mission is to compel the nations of the world to observe the Seven Noachide Laws. And those laws forbid complete Shabbat observance, as Jews practice it, to non-Jews."

is a view based on tradition. Thank you. I didn't think I had read anything in scripture to support this notion.

You obviously didn't read my previous posts, did you? Way to debate something.

Your quarrel with the Catholic Church, while certainly understandable in its own context, is out of place here.

[DouglasKC]

s a view based on tradition. Thank you. I didn't think I had read anything in scripture to support this notion. You obviously didn't read my previous posts, did you? Way to debate something. Your quarrel with the Catholic Church, while certainly understandable in its own context, is out of place here.

I did read your post. Based on your answer and since you didn't use any scripture to support your assertions I concluded that your view was based on tradition.

I simply can't debate tradition. It's pointless. I don't think tradition is holy or inspired whether it's Jewish or Catholic. Tradition can be good, but when there's scant evidence to support it scripturally it's worthless. This was a point that the messiah made clear.

[Zionist Conspirator]

I did read your post. Based on your answer and since you didn't use any scripture to support your assertions I concluded that your view was based on tradition.

If you did you didn't process it because I used Scripture itself to prove that the Tradition Moses received on Mt. Sinai is absolutely essential and that the Torah can't be understood without it.

I pointed out that the Torah commands that certain sacrifices be "heaved" and some to be "waved" (and it even describes situations, such as the installation ceremony for Aaron and his sons as priests where they are described as having been "waved") yet it nowhere explains how this "heaving" or "waving" is to be done. No where. Is this what you call not arguing from Scripture? Or are you simply too intellectually dishonest to deal with this?

Do you honestly believe that you could take a Thomas Nelson published King James Version and build the Tabernacle as described in the Book of Exodus based merely on the text itself with no oral instructions from G-d via Moses?

I also pointed out something else which absolutely shoots your position to pieces. The authoritative text of the Torah is not a printed book, not even in the original Hebrew. It is found only in the kosher Torah Scroll. And every single kosher Torah Scroll in the world is hand-written by a scribe according to a strict set of rules. If these rules did not exist there would be no kosher Torah Scroll and therefore nothing to translate into English or any other language. The Torah which you think excludes Oral Tradition actually would not have survived beyond the first generation if G-d had not given Moses a set of instructions for writing Torah Scrolls that details every detail--the sizes and shapes of the letters, the crowns attached to the letters, the spaces between the letters, etc. Scribes are called soferim (counters) because they have counted every letter in the Torah. No text in history is as authoritatively and authentically preserves as is the Torah, thanks to these Divine instructions for copying and writing it down. As I observed earlier, Protestants do not remember a world without a printing press (the printing press basically created Protestantism). They tend to assume that the Biblical text magically pops out of a printing press. It does not. Printed Bibles depend on the original hand-written Bibles, and the rules for writing those Bibles is not recorded anywhere in the Bible itself. Yet that these rules exist and that the writing of Torah Scrolls is utterly dependent on them, and could not take place without them, is self-evident.

Unfortunately, I doubt you will process this information. You are still arguing with the Pope. I'm not the Pope.

I simply can't debate tradition. It's pointless. I don't think tradition is holy or inspired whether it's Jewish or Catholic. Tradition can be good, but when there's scant evidence to support it scripturally it's worthless.

Wow. Good thing Moses found a printing press on Mt. Sinai popping out King James Versions, complete with the book of Ephesians and everything.

You evangelicals use the same logic to prove your religion that the mormons use to prove theirs.

This was a point that the messiah made clear.

When debating with someone who rejects J*sus as the messiah, you can't prove your point by simply claiming that J*sus was the messiah. That's simple logic. I hope you don't criticize mormons for proving Joseph Smith was a prophet by claiming he was.

[DouglasKC]

If you did you didn't process it because I used Scripture itself to prove that the Tradition Moses received on Mt. Sinai is absolutely essential and that the Torah can't be understood without it.

You didn't use scripture to prove this:

I pointed out that the Torah commands that certain sacrifices be "heaved" and some to be "waved" (and it even describes situations, such as the installation ceremony for Aaron and his sons as priests where they are described as having been "waved") yet it nowhere explains how this "heaving" or "waving" is to be done. No where. Is this what you call not arguing from Scripture? Or are you simply too intellectually dishonest to deal with this?

And where does God say that it matters exactly how it was waved or heaved? Where is the penalty God imposed for not "waving" or "heaving" the offering the correct way? There's nothing wrong with establishing a tradition to standardize these things, but holding that tradition to be the same as the word of God is elevating the tradition of men to commandments of God.

Do you honestly believe that you could take a Thomas Nelson published King James Version and build the Tabernacle as described in the Book of Exodus based merely on the text itself with no oral instructions from G-d via Moses?

Yes, if God wanted me to do this he would give me the understanding through his spirit:

Exd 35:31 KJV - And he hath filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship;
Exd 35:32 KJV - And to devise curious works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exd 35:33 KJV - And in the cutting of stones, to set [them], and in carving of wood, to make any manner of cunning work.
Exd 35:34 KJV - And he hath put in his heart that he may teach, [both] he, and Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan.
Exd 35:35 KJV - Them hath he filled with wisdom of heart, to work all manner of work, of the engraver, and of the cunning workman, and of the embroiderer, in blue, and in purple, in scarlet, and in fine linen, and of the weaver, [even] of them that do any work, and of those that devise cunning work.

Exd 31:3 KJV - And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,
Exd 31:4 KJV - To devise cunning works, to work in gold, and in silver, and in brass,
Exd 31:5 KJV - And in cutting of stones, to set [them], and in carving of timber, to work in all manner of workmanship.
Exd 31:6 KJV - And I, behold, I have given with him Aholiab, the son of Ahisamach, of the tribe of Dan: and in the hearts of all that are wise hearted I have put wisdom, that they may make all that I have commanded thee;

I wouldn't need any type of tradition, just as he did with Bezaleel and Aholiab.

If these rules did not exist there would be no kosher Torah Scroll and therefore nothing to translate into English or any other language. The Torah which you think excludes Oral Tradition actually would not have survived beyond the first generation if G-d had not given Moses a set of instructions for writing Torah Scrolls that details every detail--the sizes and shapes of the letters, the crowns attached to the letters, the spaces between the letters, etc. Scribes are called soferim (counters) because they have counted every letter in the Torah.

That's great, but irrelevant to the question. As I've said not all tradition is bad. Paul even affirms their role in preserving scripture:

Rom 3:1 KJV - What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
Rom 3:2 KJV - Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

This was a point that the messiah made clear.
When debating with someone who rejects J*sus as the messiah, you can't prove your point by simply claiming that J*sus was the messiah. That's simple logic. I hope you don't criticize mormons for proving Joseph Smith was a prophet by claiming he was.

When you're debating with someone who rejects the notion that all tradition is holy and inspired you can't prove your point by simply claiming that "Israel's mission is to compel the nations of the world to observe the Seven Noachide Laws. And those laws forbid complete Shabbat observance, as Jews practice it, to non-Jews.". That's simple logic. I hope you don't criticize Catholics for proving that Sunday is the Lords day by claiming their tradition proves it.

[Zionist Conspirator]

If you did you didn't process it because I used Scripture itself to prove that the Tradition Moses received on Mt. Sinai is absolutely essential and that the Torah can't be understood without it.

You didn't use scripture to prove this:

First of all, I did. You simply rejected it outright based on your presuppositions. Second, if there is an authentic Oral Tradition (and I said an authentic one; I never claimed that all "traditions" are equally from G-d) then your demand that I prove this based on your assumptions--the very assumptions I am arguing against--is fallacious.

Your claim that G-d commanded "waving" and "heaving" but did not mandate how this was to be done--as well as your total dismissal of the obvious fact that the Authentic Oral Tradition is what made the Written Torah possible and has kept in in existence all these millenia and that it could not exist without it--simply illustrates your own groundless dogmatism.

And btw, forgive me, but I don't think you're on the same spiritual level as Ezekiel, much less Betzalel and 'Ohali'av.

[DouglasKC]

You didn't use scripture to prove this: First of all, I did. You simply rejected it outright based on your presuppositions. Second, if there is an authentic Oral Tradition (and I said an authentic one; I never claimed that all "traditions" are equally from G-d) then your demand that I prove this based on your assumptions--the very assumptions I am arguing against--is fallacious.

So what do you mean by "authentic?" Can an authentic tradition be wrong?

Your claim that G-d commanded "waving" and "heaving" but did not mandate how this was to be done--as well as your total dismissal of the obvious fact that the Authentic Oral Tradition is what made the Written Torah possible and has kept in in existence all these millenia and that it could not exist without it--simply illustrates your own groundless dogmatism.

Well thanks. Did God specify how far apart to place your feet when you're waving and heaving? Did he specify the exact angle your head should be at? Did he specify the exact distance that your fingers should be spread? Did he specify the exact length the hairs on your arms needed to be when you waved or heaved? Is there no authentic tradition for these things?

And btw, forgive me, but I don't think you're on the same spiritual level as Ezekiel, much less Betzalel and 'Ohali'av.

I supported from scripture that the tabernacle could have been built and was built without tradition. I showed that God infused people with his spirit to give them the wisdom and knowledge of how to do the things he wanted done. And your response is to dismiss it by comparing my spirituality to biblical figures? Do you not think God could do the same thing to a lowly sinner like myself if he so chose?