HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?

http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php ^ | 2003 | By Jeremy K. Moritz

[Citizen of the Savage Nation]

Good points. To follow out of fear is not what Christ would want. That’s what dictators want. Christ wants you to follow Him to enjoy eternal life.

[RobRoy]

>>which means some poor jerk just misses making it into a heaven of eternal bliss and therefore gets an eternity of torment, apparently the only two options.<<

Actually, I don’t think you can “just miss”, although I believe you can “barely” make it as in 1 Corinthians 3: 10-15

I believe you either believe or you don’t. “just missing” sorta sounds like a “works based” thing. It is all very black and white to me.

[fightinJAG]

A very good summation.

Plus, since some will live eternally, there will be more revealed as to what that existence will involve. I don’t think it will be sitting on clouds playing harps.

The Bible is like the first chapter in a book. It applies to our human experience on this Earth. Once we no longer only human, and once this Earth is changed, and once the End of the Age has come, God may give us a new “book” to guide us again.

[Sherman Logan]

I find it difficult to imagine a scoring system where one can barely make it, but not just miss.

What else do you call the guy who comes in just under barely making it?

[fightinJAG]

I like your answer here.

The only thing I would add is that Jesus clearly lets us know that eternal life is a good thing and the second death is something to be avoided.

I think the particulars may have been withheld for just the reason you posit: otherwise people would follow Christ simply out of craven self-interest, not out of love for him. Yet the generalities were offered in the same way: so that those who do love Christ may find extra motivation to hang in there when the going gets tough, as it inevitably will.

[fightinJAG]

I posted a link to an article on this very subject at #35 .

I don't think there is such as thing as "just missing" the qualifying round.

[RobRoy]

Unsaved. NO faith in jesus.

Which is what all who “don’t make it” are.

No faith = zero faith.

zero is a special number,It is not a multiplier and you cannot divide by it. Anyone saved, no matter by how little, has more than “zero” faith. Anyone who is not saved, no matter how repribate, has exactly “zero” faith. There is no “barely” here.

[RobRoy]

Your post brings up a life changing epiphany I had about a year ago, and most people say, “yeah, I already knew that”. But I did not. At least I never thought about the ramifications. And here it is:

Just as the Jews did not have full understanding of the HUMAN age to come with the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus, even though the old testament hints of it all over the place, we may be in the same position as they were. That is, the next “human” age may be quite real (call it the millennium or whatever) but we only get hints of it in our current bible.

It is a simple statement, but the implications are staggering, one a bit of time is spent meditating on the possibility.

And for all we know, it could be the fifth human age. The first would be the time Adam and Eve spent in the garden - and we don’t really know how long that was (even though the bible talks of Adam’s age, it is at least remotely possible it is talking about “after” the expulsion from the Garden). The second would be the time before the flood. The third would be before Israel became a nation. The fourth would be the Christian age we are currently in and the fifth would be the post tribulation/wrath era. I can only speculate on what it would be like since it, like this age, would be based on revelation not available in the previous age.

But this is just wild speculation of the possibilities based on what the bible says as well as what it DOESN’T say.

[RobRoy]

Oh, and I agree with your additions.

[ScubieNuc]

I don’t think it will be sitting on clouds playing harps.

I totally agree! (unless playing a harp is something you have a yearning to do.)

I believe this universe God created is filled with wonders beyond our imaginations and God is yearning to let us learn of it, interact with it, and enjoy it. We are so limited in our current form away from God, yet I can remember SCUBA diving in the Caribbean and thinking, "I wish I could do this for ever."

I imagine in Heaven, with God, we will be able to interact with God's creation in ways beyond our imagination. I can imagine playing with dolphins and whales like we play with dogs and cats (only without the fear of sharks and claws)! I can imagine "swimming" through cosmic "sunsets" and "feeling" the colors as well as seeing them!

People watch TV shows where builders build dream houses in a week, and watch as people break down in tears at the awesomeness of their new home. I'm sure they think "I'll never want to leave home." Well, compare that to the fact that Jesus said...

"Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me. In my Father's house are many mansions: if [it were] not [so], I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, [there] ye may be also. John 14:1-3

With Jesus preparing us a mansion for us, I KNOW it will be an AMAZING mansion!!

[RegulatorCountry]

That’s Sheol again. See the replies regarding Lazarus and the rich man.

1 Enoch may be considered apocryphal, but it was well known and referenced in numerous Canonical books, so I do on occasion use it as a reference myself. 2 Enoch is a fraud from the middle ages, and has no validity.

[Sherman Logan]

I’m curious, then.

Why do those defending the idea of eternal torment always use Stalin and Hitler as examples of those deserving it.

The relevant statistic would then appear to be not number or severity of crimes, but rather status of faith in Christ.

IOW, Stalin and Hitler don’t deserve it any more than Chris Hitchens. He’s a kind of a jerk in many ways, although admirable in others. But he’s hardly in the major league for crimes.

[Just mythoughts]

There is only one named entity that has been to date judge for ‘annihilation’. Lucifer, the ‘first’ fallen, or Satan, and all the rest of the names/roles he has and will play. There are a numbered, 7,000 that will received that judgment on the first day of the Day of the Lord.

I found Isaiah 14:12-32 and then Ezekiel 28:12-26 that described what will happen to the devil to be the nearest specific description of what happens to those who with full knowledge choose to join the devil.

Specifically verse 18 ...therefore will I bring a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee, and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee.

The devil is supernatural so this ‘fire’ is imo not the kind of fire at a dump, but a fire yet to be brought forth.

[nonsporting]

... If someone, today, created a 100 foot diameter lake of fire 20 feet deep and then threw me into it I know what would happen to me: I would suffer immense pain for a few seconds and then I would die. All done. I did not have to strain the meaning of words at all to come to that conclusion.

Yes, but as with all analogies they fail. The lake of fire discussed at judgement is not the first death but the second which is eternal:

"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal (aionios) fire prepared for the devil and his angels. ... Then they will go away to eternal (aionios) punishment, but the righteous to eternal (aionios) life." (Matthew 25:41,46)

[swmobuffalo]

“When Jesus spoke to the groups he spoke ONLY in parables.”

True enough, but one major feature of those parables is that they use terms and images that are very familiar to the hearer.

Consequently one would logically construe that the image of hell and the flames would be familiar to those hearers.

[kodirotti]

I was trying to emphasize that in the end of time as man knows it, there will be a final judgement of all souls for the eternity, life being those who have either followed Gods will or (I pray) those like myself who are sinners and yet we seek forgiveness through Jesus Christ. I believe heaven is PERFECT beyond imagination, full of life and teeming with joy. Hell is death for those who have either rejected God’s word and his commandments, or rejected Jesus Christ as their savior. Please remember, no matter how much we want to set our own rules and perceptions, it is ultimately God’s word which will prevail wether we like it or not. IMHO

[ScubieNuc]

True enough, but one major feature of those parables is that they use terms and images that are very familiar to the hearer.

Consequently one would logically construe that the image of hell and the flames would be familiar to those hearers.

It's interesting that you should mention that. I've been reading some other material ( http://www.gospelthemes.com/hell.htm ) on this topic which ties right into that concept. It has to do with the place call Gehenna.

Gehenna, the word hell is given for in the New Testament, is rooted in an Old Testament location. It is generally regarded as derived from a valley nearby Jerusalem that originally belonged to a man named Hinnom. Scholars say the word is a transliteration of the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, a valley that had a long history in the Old Testament, all of it bad. Hence, Gehenna is a proper name like the Rio Grande Valley of Texas and New Mexico.

We first find Hinnom in Josh. 1.8 and 18.16, where he is mentioned in Joshua's layout of the lands of Judah and Benjamin. In II K. 23.10, we find that righteous King Josiah “defiled Topheth in the valley of the children of Hinnom, that no man might make his son or his daughter to pass through the fire to Molech.” Josiah, in his purification of the land of Judah, violated the idolatrous worship to the idol Molech by tearing down the shrines. Topheth (also spelled Tophet) was a word meaning literally, “a place of burning.” In II Chron. 28.3, idolatrous King Ahaz burnt incense and his children in the fire there, as did idolatrous King Manasseh in II Chron. 33.6. In Neh. 11.30, we find some settling in Topheth after the restoration of the Jewish captives from Babylon. In Jer. 19.2, 6, Jeremiah prophesied calamity coming upon the idolatrous Jews there, calling it the valley of slaughter, because God was going to slaughter the Jews there, using Nebuchadnezzar, King of Babylon. In Jer. 7.32, Jeremiah prophesied destruction coming upon the idolatrous Jews of his day with these words:

Therefore, behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that it shall no more be called Tophet, nor the valley of the son of Hinnom, but the valley of slaughter; for they shall burn in Tophet, till there be no peace.

Notice the mention of Topheth, “the place of burning,” again. Isaiah also spoke of Topheth this way in Isa. 30.33, when he warned the pro-Egypt party among the Jews (i.e., those trusting in Egypt for their salvation from Babylon rather than God) of a fiery judgment coming on them. In Jer. 19.11-14, Jeremiah gave this pronouncement of judgment by Babylon on Jerusalem at the valley of Hinnom:

And the houses of Jerusalem, and the houses of the kings of Judah, shall be defiled as the place of Tophet, because of all the houses upon whose roofs they have burned incense unto all the host of heaven, and have poured out drink offerings unto other gods.

From these passages we can see that, to the Jews, the valley of Hinnom, or Topheth, from which the New Testament concept of Gehenna arose, came to mean a place of burning, a valley of slaughter, and a place of calamitous fiery judgment. Thus, Thayer in his Greek-English Lexicon of the New Testament, said, concerning Gehenna:

Gehenna, the name of a valley on the S. and E. of Jerusalem...which was so called from the cries of the little children who were thrown into the fiery arms of Moloch, i.e., of an idol having the form of a bull. The Jews so abhorred the place after these horrible sacrifices had been abolished by king Josiah (2 Kings xxiii.10), that they cast into it not only all manner of refuse, but even the dead bodies of animals and of unburied criminals who had been executed. And since fires were always needed to consume the dead bodies, that the air might not become tainted by the putrefaction, it came to pass that the place was called Gehenna.

Actually, since Gehenna was a proper name of a valley, it would have been called Gehenna whether or not any idolatry, burning, or dumping of garbage had ever occurred there, and it did, as we now see.

There are 12 passages in the New Testament which refer to Gehenna (but are translated to hell). From these twelve Gehenna passages, we learn that Gehenna would be the familiar valley on the southwest side of Jerusalem where an imminent fiery judgment was coming on the Jews of the generation in which Jesus was crucified. It was unquenchable fire on that generation in that generation. It was a national judgment against the Jews. Gehenna was to the Jews of Jesus' day what it was to the Jews of Jeremiah's day-where the term originated-the city dump! But it entailed all the horror of being rejected and abandoned by God to the merciless enemy who surrounded the gates and who would cause their dead carcasses to be thrown into the burning, worm-infested place. Thus, when Jesus used the term He used it in the same sense that Jeremiah did: as Jerusalem then was abandoned to Babylon's invasion, so Jerusalem of Jesus' day was about to be abandoned to Roman invasion-unless they repented. None of these "hell" passages say that anyone of our day can go to hell. None of them associate hell with Satan. None of them say that Satan's domain is hell. Though they speak of men being killed and destroyed in Gehenna, none of them speak of men being tormented there.

In summary, the name Gehenna, should never have been changed to "hell" because it was a proper noun describing a place that the Jews would recognize as a place of national judgment. The reason Jesus mentions it 11 times is to warn the Jewish people that a national judgment was about to come upon them. Jesus' prophecy came true in 70 AD when Rome destroyed the Temple and stacked Jewish rebels in the Valley of Hinnon, or in Gehenna.

[RobRoy]

Exactly! C. S. Lewis said something along the lines of this:

If “Bill” has the opportunity to murder 1,000,000 peole, but only murders 500,000, and “joe” has the opportunity to murder 20 people and murders all 20, Joe is worse than Bill.

It is not about how bad you are. We all miss the mark. It is literally “either/or”. There are no varying degrees of badness regarding salvation. You either accept Christ or you don’t.

If Ted Bundy was sincere in he proclamation of Christ as his savior before his execution, I believe he will be with the Lord. Meanwhile, I believe others that didn
t kill anybody but refused to accept Christ will not be.

Varying degrees of sin is a human “sensibility”. The bible teaches that it is not “quantity” of sin, but the mere presence of it - ANY of it. And we ALL have it. But the blood of Christ (through His being a perfect sacrifice for my sins) covers those sins.

It’s almost as though, at the great judgement, the books will be opened and they will get to me and start to read off the sins in my life and Jesus will say, “It’s ok, he’s with me.” And God says, “Oh, ok.” and off I go to an eternity in the presence of God. Meanwhile, a person that lived a “better life than me who may have committed only one sin his entire life, will have that one sin keep him from an eternity with God and he is anhialated.

[RobRoy]

>>Yes, but as with all analogies they fail. The lake of fire discussed at judgement is not the first death but the second which is eternal<<

I agree. If I drop my car into a vat of molten steel, it’s death will be eternal. It ain’t comming back.

Death, by definition, is an ending. And saying it is eternal means it will not be undone.

If I paint a wall blue for all eternity, it doesn’t mean I paint it for all eternity. It means I painted it once and for all eternity it STAYS blue it is (aionios) blueness, but the event that caused it to be blue is finite.

The punishment is death, and it is eternal. It will not be undone.

And

[RobRoy]

>>Yes, but as with all analogies they fail.<<

All analogies and parables ultimately fail. Ifan analogy does not fail at some point, it becomes the thing itself.