HELL: Eternal Torment or Complete Annihilation?

http://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php ^ | 2003 | By Jeremy K. Moritz

[RobRoy]

>>Eternal means "non ending", "without end", "forever".<< Actually, that is only partially true. Matthew 18:8, for example, uses the word evelasting ins one version and eternal in the other. But regardless, the word aiōnios has several meanings, one of which is "without end, never to cease, everlasting". Another definition is "without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be". Another is "without beginning". I look at it this way: Time is a current within an ocean called "eternity". And even so, in this verse the word "everlasting" is referring to the fire, not the one thrown into it. BTW, I got my definitions from Strongs.

[RobRoy]

I said: I’ve always hated the “turn or burn” concept

To which you said: A preconception which flies in the face of the plain teaching of scripture.

First, it does not fly in the face of the “plain teaching of scripture”, as this thread demonstrates. There are LOTS of Biblical references that “plainly” teach there is eternal life, and there is death. What it flies in the facr of is your interpretation of scripture.

Second, it is not a preconception. It is a statement of preference. As the author of the OP points out, it flies in the face of a “loving” God. It always “seemed” a bit schitso to me. I accepted it, but it never really worked. Of course, I am also well aware of my favorite two verses in the bible when I say that (Proverbs 14:12 aND 16:25).

Actually, I just noticed they end in the word death!

[RobRoy]

Thanatos is from the root word thnesko. which can mean to be dead or spiritually dead.

I’m avoiding a lot of arguments because the author already made them in the lengthy OP.

I will say this though: this new way of thinking has actually had a porfound effect on my perspective of God and my relationship with him. My focus is MUCH more on his being a Loving God. I am being too brief. It is much deeper than that, but under the circumstances, it will do. Again, the OP already covered that. And he is absolutely correct.

I admit I only read a piece of the article before today. I read the whole thing today. Very powerful stuff.I love it when my paradigms get turned on their ear.

[RobRoy]

>>Abraham, Lazarus, and the rich man died but they did not cease to exist.<<

Seven,

I was reading 2 Peter this morning and came across this: 2 Peter 2:4
“For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons[b] to be held for judgment...”

It reminded me that the Bible is very clear that for all humanity there are actually two “after death” times. First is the time before the White Throne judgment, and second is the time afterward. All of those folks you mentioned - and all mankind - is in the period before the White Throne judgment, so it is a bit like applying Old testament rules to our New testament world. They are valuable information, but not necessarily directly applicable. e.g. I don’t sacrifice animals.

I strongly agree with you that there is something mysterious about death. I strongly believe that not one of us is 100% right in their views on this, but some may be closer than others. Meanwhile, all I can do is prayerfully read His word and really try to focus on pleasing him, rather than what will happen if I don’t.

[Cvengr]

The big problem I have with the idea of eternal torment is that God is a just and loving God. He said so.

IMHO, the question phrased, "Why would a just and loving God condemn anybody to an eternal torment?" is in and of itself an improperly framed question if one is in fellowship with Christ.

A better question might be, "Why should our perfectly righteous and just God eternally endure the presence of thinking souls, to whom He has imputed life, who insist upon remaining unjust and unrighteous, regardless what He has provided for their salvation, to the point of attacking Him and those who have faith in Him, and if able would even remove the life He had imputed to others?

(Granted it's a run-on sentence.)

[Sherman Logan]

You failed to address the crux of my comment.

It is not possible for a human to justly incur infinite torment as punishment for sins committed in a finite lifetime.

Do you think it is?

Also, you imply that the God's only alternative to salvation for dealing with unrighteous souls is eternal torment. Do you sincerely believe this?

It's as if I were to believe that if there are people whose company I don't enjoy, then I MUST torture them. This is a ludicrous notion.

Also this leaves out the official doctrine of a good many churches, predestination, by which God creates souls who have no choice but to do his will, which in their case is unrighteousness, and then punishes them for all eternity for doing exactly what he forced them to do. (See, I can do run-ons too.)

[Space Patrol Hoppa]

Thank you for this interesting post. While I disagree with the conclusions drawn by the author, I did find it informative.

For the record, here is the Catholic teaching on Hell, from the Catechism of the Catholic Church, I, Sec.2, Ch. 3, Art. 12, ss 4:

IV. HELL

1033 / We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him." Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren. To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God's merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self- exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called "hell."

1034 / Jesus often speaks of "Gehenna" of "the unquenchable fire" reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost. Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather... all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire," and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"

1035 / The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire." The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.

1036 / The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."

Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."

1037 / God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance":

Father, accept this offering
from your whole family.
Grant us your peace in this life,
save us from final damnation,
and count us among those you have chosen.

[ScubieNuc]

I appreciate the comments. I understand where the Catholic Church stands, but what is important isn’t what the writer of the commentary believes or where the Catholic Church stands, what ultimately matters is where do YOU stand.

One day, all of us will individually stand before the Almighty God, our Creator, and be judged on where we stood and what we based our stances on. Some people rely on other people to do the digging and then they just guess, but the first Christians dug into the Scriptures and searched them themselves to find out what God taught.

For me, when I have looked at the Catholic stances on things, I find a lot of things they say lacking Scriptural bases. Therefore, I wouldn’t be comfortable saying something like, “Well, the Catholic Church say ____, therefore I’ll just accept that.”

I used to believe in an eternal torment, but after reading this guys commentary and others and comparing it to what the Scriptures teach, I have come to see that that idea is wrong.

[cuban leaf]

Wow! Great thread. I think it needs a bump!

[ScubieNuc]

Wow, I’m surprised that this buried thread was revived! Thanks for that.

Personally, I think that this Biblical discovery has been the most eye opening for me in my 25+ years of Christianity. Like I originally posted, I used to believe in an eternal punishING, but upon closer study, that idea isn’t supported but annihilation is.

The two biggest keys for me centered around the fact that we Christians don’t “put on” immortality until we accept Christ, and the talk in Revelation about the second death for unbelievers. You can only be tormented forever if you are immortal and alive, but you can’t be alive if the Bible says that you recieve the second death in the Lake of Fire.

[cuban leaf]

I was looking for this article in Google and the Freerepublic link came up.

I’m with you on everything you say. In several places the bible says that one goes to “eternal life” with the Lord and the other goes to “death and destruction”. If we were not talking to people who believe in eternal suffering, the meaning would be clear - just as, when you are not talking to a rabid Obama supporter, his wipe-out in the debate is clear.

I say that as someone who was once an “eternal suffering” believer, though I had never really studied the subject in depth. Once I did, the evidence was all over the place about the eternal fate of the non-believer.

[ScubieNuc]

What’s interesting is I shared what I had found with my pastor, figuring I should get a theologically trained person to look at it and show me the weak points. He looked at it and couldn’t come up with anything that the article didn’t already address.

While he thought the idea was interesting, I got the impression that he hadn’t seen this argument from Scripture before and I didn’t get the feeling that he changed his view point. However, I did start noticing small changes in his sermons which made me think, he may have changed his mind.

I think the dilemma for pastors is two-fold: if they start preaching something that many Christians are unfamiliar with, then it can cause people to leave your church. Two, I think pastor are so ingrained with the “big stick” of eternal punishing, that they don’t know what to do without it. The thought process is kind of like if a horrible sinner (I know, I’m a horrible sinner too, but you know what I mean) thinks that all his punishment is a temporary punishment in Hell and then complete ellimination in the Lake of Fire, they might say, “That’s not so bad, I can handle that.”

The problem with the last point is that I believe only children are “scared” to Jesus. Adults, I believe, come to Jesus because they recognize that they are sinners and that they can’t save themselves, and that there is a better way to live in this world. I think they also recognize that there is an AMAZING Creator in this world and they want to be a part of Him.

[Elsie]

This makes sense and is supported Biblically.

Jesus said...

John 3:18
Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.

I wonder what happens to folks who are CONDEMNED?

[ScubieNuc]

Those that are condemned will suffer death as laid out a few verses before (3:16).

I find it interesting to look at the meaning of words and the meaning of the words that got translated into English words. We may have a concept of what we think “condemned” means, but that English word was used to describe the Greek word used in the original text. Here is a link to help with that:
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?Strongs=G2919&t=KJV

[robroys woman]

I’ve come a long way since this thread (Yes, I’m really Robroy, but he’s officially banned. I’m using my wife’s account).

I’ve joined rethinkinghell.com and am a member of the facebook group, Rethinking Hell. And there are TONS of youtube videos on this subject now.

I’m preparing to teach a Sunday school class in my church called “Everything you know is wrong” (yes, a play on the Firesign Theater album). It will not be about the hell message. Rather, it will be about things we don’t think about much in scripture, or are intentionally ignored. e.g. some want to take it all absolutely literally, but what, then, do you do with “before the rooster crows” in one gospel, and “before the rooster crows twice” in another?

The internet has blown up a LOT of “Traditional” church teaching. And it is because so many are now being exposed to lexicons so easily thanks to sites like Blueletterbible.com and Biblehub.com. If one has a fairly strong understanding of scripture, one can find exactly the verse that may come to mind regarding a particular subject with a simple google search. It’s awesome.

It will change the makeup of the church. It IS changing the makeup of the church. Fence post sitters are leaving the church and sincere believers are becoming empowered.

[who knows what evil?]

Bkmrk.

[BikerTrash]

bumpmark