Replies

>>>>As Krakauer mentions

LOL. I love it when you cite liberals who dislike the LDS church, it just makes us look better.

BTW, perhaps you shold read what he writes about how the Christian right is akin to Muslim terrorists before you post his crap here on FR again.

___________________________

Under the Banner of Heaven. This book occassionaly rears its head here on FR as some sort of authority on Mormonism.

In her book “Godless: The Church of Liberalism” Pages 16-17 Ann Coulter writes “In the book Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith, Jon Krakauer wrotes of the Bush administration, “This, after all, is a country led by a born-again Christian.... who characterizes international relations as a biblical clash between forces of good and evil. The highest officer in the land, Attorney General John Ashcroft, is a dyed-in-the-wool follower of a fundamentalist Christian sect- The Pentecostal Assemblies of God of America... and subscribes to a vividly apocalyptic worldview that has much in common with key millenarian beliefs held by the Lafferty brothers and the residents of Colorado City”.

Here are more of Krakauer the agnostics own words bashing religion.

“I don’t know what God is, or what God had in mind when the universe was set in motion. In fact I don’t know if God even exists, although I confess that I sometimes find myself praying in times of great fear, or despair, or astonishment at a display of unexpected beauty.”

“Faith is the very antithesis of reason...,”

“There is a dark side to religious devotion that is too often ignored or denied,” he posits in the prologue. “As a means of motivating people to be cruel and inhumane—as a means of motivating people to be evil, to borrow the vocabulary of the devout—there may in fact be nothing more effective than religion.” Referring to the “Islamic fundamentalism” that resulted in the killings of 11 September 2001, he goes on to say that “men have been committing heinous acts in the name of God ever since mankind began believing in deities, and extremists exist within all religions.” He finds that “history has not lacked” for Muslims, “Christians, Jews, Sikhs, and even Buddhists who have been motivated by scripture to butcher innocents. Faith-based violence was present long before Osama bin Laden, and it will be with us long after his demise”

Soon after 9/11 liberals started blaming fundamentalist religion (except the Muslim variety) and then bit by bit mainstream Christians for 9/11 type terrorism. The message the MSM promoted was a hit on Christians. This book fits into that larger political context of what is going on post 9/11. it ries to take the actions of two murderers and paint an entire faith with terrorism. Here is the official response from the LDS Church to the book. Church Response to Jon Krakauer's Under the Banner of Heaven

Rameumptom, beyond the statement below that people are "motivated by scripture to butcher statements" -- a statement I disagree with -- what exactly is way off-base with the following Krakauer statement you cited?

“There is a dark side to religious devotion that is too often ignored or denied,” he posits in the prologue. “As a means of motivating people to be cruel and inhumane—as a means of motivating people to be evil, to borrow the vocabulary of the devout—there may in fact be nothing more effective than religion.” Referring to the “Islamic fundamentalism” that resulted in the killings of 11 September 2001, he goes on to say that “men have been committing heinous acts in the name of God ever since mankind began believing in deities, and extremists exist within all religions.” He finds that “history has not lacked” for Muslims, “Christians, Jews, Sikhs, and even Buddhists who have been motivated by scripture to butcher innocents. Faith-based violence was present long before Osama bin Laden, and it will be with us long after his demise”

We both know that Islam, Hinduism, Tibetan Buddhism, & even forms of Christianity has been misused or used to formulate violence. Even Jim Jones used a false presentation of Christianity to lead to mass self-violence in Jonestown. Same with Koresh in Waco.

Religion in general is NOT sacro-sanct to God. Jesus said the "religion" of Pharisaicalism was used to traverse land & sea to make proselytized converts "twice the son of hell." [That doesn't sound like Jesus sanctioned all religions under the sun -- even offshoots of His people].

You also cited Krakauer saying:

...I confess that I sometimes find myself praying in times of great fear, or despair, or astonishment at a display of unexpected beauty.”

You know, over the years, LDS FREEPERS have cited probably hundreds of journalists -- journalists who no doubt do a lot less praying that what Krakauer professes above...Yet I don't think we've seen you come forth to lecture them, have you?

So a journalist -- unless he's a religious journalist -- can never be accurate about any story he/she writes?

Krakauer quote: “Faith is the very antithesis of reason...,”

Of course you & I would disagree this statement. While faith doesn't militate against reason, even the Bible outlines distinctions between faith and reason: Heb. 11:1: Now faith is being sure of what we hope for and certain of what we do not see. Or, My message and my preaching were not with wise and persuasive words, but with a demonstration of the Spirit's power, so that your faith might not rest on men's wisdom, but on God's power. (1 Cor. 2:4-5)

I love it when you cite liberals who dislike the LDS church, it just makes us look better.

KJV

Galatians 1:6-9

6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel:
7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

ANYBODY???

Like this goofy looking fellow???

2 Corinthians 11:12-15

12. But what I do, that I will do, that I may cut off occasion from them which desire occasion; that wherein they glory, they may be found even as we.
13. For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
15. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Like THESE guys??

http://scriptures.lds.org/en/js_h/1/19#19

17 It no sooner appeared than I found myself delivered from the enemy which held me bound. When the light rested upon me I saw two Personages, whose brightness and glory defy all description, standing above me in the air. One of them spake unto me, calling me by name and said, pointing to the other—This is My Beloved Son. Hear Him!

Ephesians 2:1-2

1. And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

1 Corinthians 4:17
For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring you into remembrance of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

1 Corinthians 11:2
Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered them to you.

2 Thessalonians 2:15
Therefore, brethren, stand fast, and hold the traditions which ye have been taught, whether by word, or our epistle.

2 Timothy 1:13
Hold fast the form of sound words, which thou hast heard of me, in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus.

2 Timothy 3:14-15
14. But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15. And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.