It still is pig talk and certain brand of so called Chistians love to bring that topic up and wallow in it!
This is not the first time this topic was raised I remember drstevej loved to flash that stupid OT verse which has nothing to do with the NT that was an OT conditions.
When one is Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as well as when receiving sacarment this is to wash off the dirt of the world that is one of the reasons it is taken!
Another is to always remember Him in the course of ones life that week until they meet agian.
So many are under the impression by calling themselves flithy rags it is like self-flatulation which is a form of phony humility!
No unclean thing can enter Heaven so if one thinks they are filthy rags they surly can not enter Heaven!
One is either are filty rags or born again one can’t be both!
Such ignorance some beleivers try to peddle!
Such ignorance the LDS Organization takes advantage of.
PING to # 819
Whew, hoh......ROTFLMHO....
Resty - I know you didn't mean to, but thanks for brightening my day!
What is "self-flatuation" resty?
From your post...." So many are under the impression by calling themselves flithy rags it is like self-flatulation which is a form of phony humility!"
I don't recall that term being biblical and it sounds like it's against RF rules to me!
It is the truth right out of the Bible Resty and it speaks directly to the righteousness that mormonism claims to have. The is how the True God views the works of mormonism - not very pretty is it Resty - yet it is God's word just the same.
Re: Post 819
Since I am on my way out the door for a meeting, I do not have the time right now to give you the response your post deserves.
However, I will respond this afternoon when i return.
This is not the first time this topic was raised I remember drstevej loved to flash that stupid OT verse which has nothing to do with the NT that was an OT conditions.
Is this the "stupid" OT verse you are referring to?
But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. (Isaiah 64:6).
Really, calling the WORD OF GOD STUPID is not a good thing, Resty.
The sacrifice of Christ did away with the sacrifices of the OT law, it did not do away with our sinful nature, which is what this verse talks about. There are 3 main points in this verse:
1. We are all unclean (we have a sinful nature brought about by the Fall of Adam).
2. Our 'good works' are not acceptable to God, they too are unclean things that require a sacrifice (explained further down).
3. Our iniquities (sins) take us away from God.
When one is Baptize in the name of the Father, Son and Holy Ghost as well as when receiving sacarment this is to wash off the dirt of the world that is one of the reasons it is taken!
Another is to always remember Him in the course of ones life that week until they meet agian.
Baptism does cleanse us of sin, but you are missing the true point of Baptism. Baptism is an OUTWARD sign of an INWARD change. It is symbolic
"Or don't you know that all of us who were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death? We were therefore buried with him through baptism into death in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, we too may live a new life. (Romans 6:3-4).
It is a symbolic dying of the old self and a resurrection to our new life in Christ. Christ changes us from the inside out. We live for HIS glory, not to earn our own "exaltation". Baptism is a public statement of our faith in Christ, not in a church.
Forgiveness of sins is not the purpose of Communion (sacrament). It is symbolic of the sacrifice of Christ. That is why the elements ARE important. Bread and Wine/Grape Juice is symbolic of the Body and BLOOD of Christ. Notice that he specifically speaks of the "fruit of the vine". Water is NOT the fruit of the vine.
We are to repent of our sins (called an examination of conscience or by confession in certain traditions) PRIOR to taking communion, We are absolved fully when we repent and ask God for forgiveness. Only then may we take communion worthily.
Matthew 26:26-30 And as they were eating, Jesus took bread, and blessed it, and brake it, and gave it to the disciples, and said, Take, eat; this is my body. And he took the cup, and gave thanks, and gave it to them, saying, Drink ye all of it; For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins. But I say unto you, I will not drink henceforth of this fruit of the vine, until that day when I drink it new with you in my Father's kingdom.
Luke 22:19-20 And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake it, and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance of me. Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you.
1 Cor. 10:16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?
1 Cor. 11: 23 - 29 For I received from the Lord what I also passed on to you: The Lord Jesus, on the night he was betrayed, took bread, and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, "This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me." In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me." For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord's death until he comes. Therefore, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. A man ought to examine himself before he eats of the bread and drinks of the cup. For anyone who eats and drinks without recognizing the body of the Lord eats and drinks judgment on himself.
So many are under the impression by calling themselves flithy rags it is like self-flatulation which is a form of phony humility!
I think you mean "self-flagellation", although I will never type "self-flagellation" (which happens more often than you would think) again without thinking "self-flatulation". ROFL. Thank you for that.
"self-flagellation" means to punish oneself by whipping (or beating). It was common in early Monastic circles and hit a "fever pitch" with the "Flagellants" in the 13th Century. While the group was banned by the Catholic Church in the 14th Century, many of the stricter Monastic groups still practice it, although not as severely.
It is not "phony humility". I am sincerely humble before my Lord. We are wretches without Christ. Our good works are filthy rags to God. That is not phony, that is biblical.
No unclean thing can enter Heaven so if one thinks they are filthy rags they surly can not enter Heaven! One is either are filty rags or born again one can’t be both!
BINGO! We are all unclean by nature. We are cleansed by the Blood of Jesus Christ. He makes us perfect, not our works. Our works, without Christ, are all "filthy rags". Our works, done for our glory (exaltation or our own salvation) are "filthy rags".
Here is a great explanation of how this OT verse is connected to Christ and our works:
Because God compares the good works of men to be like those soiled cloths, it is obvious that those good works of men are also repulsive to Him. They are unclean and must stay outside of His presence. They could never be pleasing to God because of His revulsion to them.
God is repulsed when men and women attempt to please Him with their good works. Again, our works are an unclean thing. When a woman, unclean because of her monthly cycle, finished the cycle, she had to offer a sacrifice before she was again clean and allowed back into society. By the same toke, since our works are unclean and compared to soiled menstrual clothes, a sacrifice must be made to cleanse them. Since all of our works are like soiled menstrual cloths, then our own works cannot cleanse them (if it seems circular, it is, because it is impossible for our works to cleanse our works). The sacrifice of our own works is insufficient.
Since our works are unclean, they have the exact opposite effect than the effect we desire. Instead of pleasing God, which would allow us into His presence, (in our way of thinking) they actually deeply offend God. Those works disgust Him. There is no way He will accept them.
So, if you are trying to compile enough good works to make up for your sins, forget it. If you wish to make sure your list of good works is longer than your list of bad works, you are in trouble. It will not happen. You are trying to put your good works in the Good Works Column in order to make that list longer that the one in the Bad Works Column. Since your works, good or bad, are as soiled menstrual cloths, and therefore bad in God's eyes, they are actually all going in the Bad Works Column, making it longer and longer. The point here is, you can never do enough good works to get into Heaven. Indeed without Christ you can do no good works. If all your works are as soiled menstrual cloths, the more you accumulate, the worse the stench gets in God's nostrils. If you are going to church occasionally and doing a good deed or two once in a while and hoping those things will get you into Heaven, you are out of luck. It will never happen.
However, God has provided a perfect sacrifice for us. His Son, Jesus Christ, was a perfect and sinless man who died in our place, which can take our sins away. When we believe on Him that He died and rose from the grave three days later and is alive today we are saved. His work was perfect while our works are filthy. Now, after He saves us, the works we do are no longer as filthy rags.
Christians are still human and can still do bad works. But their salvation is not dependent upon a list of good and bad works. Their salvation is based on the One Good Work that Christ did at Calvary. When Christians do bad works, which are really sin, then the blood that Christ shed at Calvary covers their sins and they are forgiven their sins. Conversely, when Christians do works that are good, those works are acceptable to God.
If you are not a Christian, that is, if you are not saved, then any and all attempts you make to please God actually displease Him. If God is displeased with you, you will never get into Heaven. Stop bagging up soiled menstrual cloths to present to God in hopes that He will let you into heaven based on those bags. It is not going to happen. You are wasting your time doing good works without Christ. They will do you no good.
http://www.bibleword.org/rags2.shtml#a
Salvation is not just Resurrection as the LDS teach. Salvation in Christian terms is equivalent to the LDS concept of Exaltation, to be in the presence of God the Father, God the Son, and the Holy Spirit for ETERNITY. This is salvation from death and hell. How exactly are we saved from death and hell? By faith alone, not works. Faith in the Jesus Christ of the Bible, not the LDS Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9: For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Resty, you need to give up the "filthy rags" of the secret handshakes and oaths of the Temple, of the idea that you can IN ANY WAY earn glory of any type, and of the laundry list of "good works" the LDS demand. All Christ demands is that you believe in Him ALONE for your salvation, not in any denomination. Then and ONLY then, will your good works be acceptable to God.
It is simple. Humble yourself before the Lord and sincerely pray this prayer and believe it (and prayer is a conversation NOT a work) and you can be Born Again, saved completely by the Blood of Jesus. You can have your "calling and election made sure".
A SINNERS PRAYER
Heavenly Father:..........................................................................
I come to you in prayer asking for the forgiveness of
my Sins. I confess with my mouth and believe with my
heart that Jesus is your Son, And that he died on the
Cross at Calvary that I might be forgiven and have
Eternal Life in the Kingdom of Heaven. Father, I believe
that Jesus rose from the dead and I ask you right now
to come in to my life and be my personal Lord and
Savior. I repent of my Sins and will Worship you ALONE all the
day's of my Life!. Because your word (The Bible) is truth, I confess
with my mouth that I am Born Again and Cleansed
by the Blood of Jesus not by anything i do! In Jesus Name, Amen.
“It still is pig talk and certain brand of so called Chistians love to bring that topic up and wallow in it!”
I’m going to ignore what are clearly typos here. Essentially you are saying that while some among us are “so-called” christians, in fact, (because you do not like certain verses of the Bible, you reserve the right to be selective about what is applicable and appropriate) our willingness to address ourselves to every part of the Bible makes us pigs and our talk “pig talk”?!
Am I missing something there, or drawing a wrong conclusion from your tersely worded criticisms?
Because if I am not, then you ARE admitting to having indulged yourself in a personal attack against Tennessee Nana, and whomever else you might have been similarly identifying, and I do not recall any of us “so-called” Christians EVER calling you a pig, nor your talk “pig talk”!
For the record, I believe that the descriptive passage in question is utilized in BOTH testaments, and that the contextual meaning is, as well, remarkably similar. If there is ANYONE here who has the knowledge and information (with specific independent scholarly references to cite, please...) to correct and/or refute me on that...
Then I will stand corrected. Otherwise...
“So many are under the impression by calling themselves flithy rags it is like self-flatulation which is a form of phony humility!”
Ummm...okaaaay. We have a most unfortunate confusion/misuse of terms here.
I believe the term you REALLY wanted to implement is “flagellation”, restornu.
If you will consult a dictionary on your own, you will probably agree with me that it might be a form of aromatic self-humiliation, but nothing more.
As to the term you probably intended - it is not that, but rather honest acknowledgment of what ANY person’s best efforts are actually worth in obtaining entry into heaven, when taken apart from G_d and His abundant grace.
Context means everything, restornu - and I think all in this forum who are not ignorant would agree that “the term” being discussed is applicable NOT to a person’s righteousness obtained by G_d’s mercy through Christ’s sacrifice and cleansing blood, but to any works done outside of G_d that pretend to provide sufficient
righteousness.
Christ died on the Cross; His blood flowed.
That blood replaces the blood of all the ceremonial sacrifices of ox and lamb and dove which were under the old covenant, and considered temporary, because they were imperfect (even when unblemished) and temporary (because they lacked the soul of humanity and the eternity of G_d).
Here then is the paradox which our Lord presents us with:
Our unrighteousness - our “filthy (bloody) rags” can only be cleansed - by being washed in the blood shed by Christ upon Golgotha.
Without that Blessed Blood as a cleansing, covering “agent” - we are like Adam and Eve, naked and ashamed.
G_d cannot see us as other than covered in the bloody guilt of our sins under the law, and the law demands justice - demands that a penalty be paid. After all, we are told if a man breaks one commandment, he has broken them all - so we might as well be guilty of murder in that sense - so stained are we.
Our Salvation - once and for always - is that we are told where there is a cleansing flood we may crawl through. Once we are cleansed, that blood becomes a lens through which G_d sees not our sins, but the righteousness of His Son who lovingly paid our debt in full.
Recognizing that we cannot obtain such a result on our own is ther furthest thing from phony humility, restornu.
It is a love that is humbled by the awesomeness of such a sacrifice, that “while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us...” “that none might perish, but that all may have eternal life”.
The passage is there in the Bible, and it does not say that we “Are” filthy..., but that our best efforts are “As” filthy. In practical terms it is a simile, not a metaphor, but even if it was a metaphor, it would still present an accurate image, and we would still be allowed entry into heaven, and fellowship with Christ for eternity on the basis of our choosing salvation in his blood, and a relationship with him.
That is not ignorance, it is Scriptural truth, vouchsafed by the Holy Spirit.
A.A.C.
