Posted on 03/23/2009 11:32:12 AM PDT by topcat54
For one who quotes systematic theologians of different stripes ad nauseum, your coining of “The System” is rather funny. There is no “System”. There is Scripture; and I happen to agree with the vast majority of dispensationalists far more than I disagree with them. But contrary to your fantasy, we aren’t all sitting around waiting for the latest Grant Jeffrey or Hal Lindsey or Tim LaHaye book to tell us how to believe. Our beliefs are rooted in Scripture and it is there that we take our stand.
No, I was merely pointing out how you were misrepresenting the imagery in Romans 11.
The olive tree does not belong to Israel. Israel simply enjoyed the "fatness of the olive tree". When the wild branches are grafted in they enjoy the same. When unbelieving Israel was broken off, the blessing was removed from them. But they can be grafted in again, by faith in Jesus Christ.
You are trying to make a brand new Tree come about due to the church's inclusion in the grafting.
You keep using that confusing and unbiblical phrase, "the church's inclusion". Nowhere does it say "the church" was grafted into the olive tree. It says gentiles, wild branches, were. You are clearly twisting the text to try to make it say something it doesn't say.
I am saying, insofar as Ryrie or Scofield are in harmony with Scripture, I listen to them. Where they stray, I do not.
I stand on the Word.
Heb. 11:39-40, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
“The promise to Abraham and his seed was always of the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem.”
The ORS really has a problem with scripture. I can see why it likes to use translations that are ambiguous. A little refresher on the promises to Abraham.
Gen. 12:1-3, “1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country, and from thy kindred, and from thy father’s house, unto a land that I will shew thee: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.”
Gen. 17:7-8, “And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God.”
The promises to Abraham were a nation, blessing and land. No mention of a city.
Heb. 11:8-10, “ By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.”
13-16, “ These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
Heb. 11:39-40, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
The promise they have not received yet is the land, the country that has been promised and prophesied to them all through the Old Testament. And they won’t receive that promise until all the elect has been saved.
“So they do get Left Behind® when Jesus and the NT saints leave for the rapture, is that it?”
I don’t see any Old Testament saints around here so I don’t know how they can be raptured?
“Are we talking about The System®? I see no gap anywhere in Daniel.”
Of course you can’t see a “gap” in Daniel 9. The ORS won’t allow it. It throws the whole system off. But take a look at the passage and perhaps the light will shine through the ORS veil. However the ORS does recognize that “thy people” is a reference to Israel and Daniel 7-12 deals with “thy people”, not the church
Dan 9:25 Know therefore and understand, [that] from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince [shall be] seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
Using the ancient Jewish calendar, 483 years (69 X 7) from 445 B.C., the date Artaxerxes ordered Jerusalem to be rebuilt brings one to 32 A.D the time of the triumphal entry of Jesus into Jerusalem (unto the Messiah the Prince). Then there is the crucifixion and destruction of Jerusalem and the temple some 38-40 years after but there is no time line for it in the prophecy, the “gap”.
Dan 9:26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof [shall be] with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
Now some time after the destruction of Jerusalem the time line begins again for 7 years and begins with a covenant of peace that is broken in the middle of the 7 years and ends with the resurrection of the believing remnant of Israel.
Dan 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
Dan 11:36-12:3, “And the king shall do according to his will; and he shall exalt himself, and magnify himself above every god, and shall speak marvellous things against the God of gods, and shall prosper till the indignation be accomplished: for that that is determined shall be done. Neither shall he regard the God of his fathers, nor the desire of women, nor regard any god: for he shall magnify himself above all. But in his estate shall he honour the God of forces: and a god whom his fathers knew not shall he honour with gold, and silver, and with precious stones, and pleasant things. Thus shall he do in the most strong holds with a strange god, whom he shall acknowledge [and] increase with glory: and he shall cause them to rule over many, and shall divide the land for gain.
Dan 11:40 And at the time of the end shall the king of the south push at him: and the king of the north shall come against him like a whirlwind, with chariots, and with horsemen, and with many ships; and he shall enter into the countries, and shall overflow and pass over. He shall enter also into the glorious land, and many [countries] shall be overthrown: but these shall escape out of his hand, [even] Edom, and Moab, and the chief of the children of Ammon. He shall stretch forth his hand also upon the countries: and the land of Egypt shall not escape. But he shall have power over the treasures of gold and of silver, and over all the precious things of Egypt: and the Libyans and the Ethiopians [shall be] at his steps.
Dan 11:44 But tidings out of the east and out of the north shall trouble him: therefore he shall go forth with great fury to destroy, and utterly to make away many. And he shall plant the tabernacles of his palace between the seas in the glorious holy mountain; yet he shall come to his end, and none shall help him. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.
Notice that this resurrection deals with the believing remnant of Israel after the 7 year period but there is no mention of the church or believing nations.
Michael Servetus
Michael Servetus (1509 or 1511-October 27, 1553), a Spaniard martyred in the Reformation for his criticism of the doctrine of the trinity and his opposition to infant baptism, has often been considered an early unitarian.
Sharply critical though he was of the orthodox formulation of the trinity, Servetus is better described as a highly unorthodox trinitarian.
Still, aspects of his theology—for example, his rejection of the doctrine of original sin—did influence those who later founded unitarian churches in Poland and Transylvania.
Public criticism of those responsible for his execution, the Reform Protestants in Geneva and their pastor, John Calvin, moreover, inspired unitarians and other groups on the radical left-wing of the Reformation to develop and institutionalize their own heretical views.
Widespread aversion to Servetus’ death has been taken as signaling the birth in Europe of religious tolerance, a principle now more important to modern Unitarian Universalists than antitrinitarianism.
Servetus is also celebrated as a pioneering physician. He was the first to publish a description of the blood’s circulation through the lungs.
http://www25.uua.org/uuhs/duub/articles/michaelservetus.html
We are the olive trees. Those of Israel are the olive trees and the candlesticks. Israel is us.
Zechariah 4:3 And two olive trees by it, one upon the right side of the bowl, and the other upon the left side thereof.
4:11 Then answered I, and said unto him, "What are these two olive trees upon the right side of the candlestick and upon the left side thereof?"
4:12 And I answered again, and said unto him, "What be these two olive branches which through the two golden pipes empty the golden oil out of themselves?"
4:14 Then said he, "These are the two anointed ones, that stand by the Lord of the whole earth."
Christ is The Golden Candlestick and the olive trees are the two witnesses of end times. Believers, those that witness for Him, are olive trees.
Hardly. The Greek confirms the accuracy of the interpretation from NKJV.
The promises to Abraham were a nation, blessing and land. No mention of a city.
9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. … 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. … 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.It could not be any more clear. Call it a city or a country. Hebrews uses both images to infallibly interpret the OT promises for us.
22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, to an innumerable company of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are registered in heaven, to God the Judge of all, to the spirits of just men made perfect, 24 to Jesus the Mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaks better things than that of Abel. (Heb. 12)Could it be that The System® is clouding your ability to read the text?
The promise they have not received yet is the land,
The promise, according to Hebrews, was the eternal, heavenly city. You bad explanation of the OT does not trump the clear explanation of the promise from the NT.
I don’t see any Old Testament saints around here so I don’t know how they can be raptured?
I thought “the rapture” of futurism involved the dead (those who are asleep) as well as the living. So Abraham and the OT saints still get Left Behind® while Christ and the NT saints head off for “the rapture”. That is your position, no?
Of course you can’t see a “gap” in Daniel 9.
I don’t see it because it is not there, in spite of your futurist explanations. I have not swallowed the kool aid. Only followers of The System® imagine modern, secularist Israel and Russia and China and the Common Market and Iraq and the World Bank and Nicolae Carpathia in the pages of Daniel. It’s the fantasy they have devised. Do not fault the rest of us for not playing along in your Fantasy Prophecy League.
Could be, but you were the one that told me to “start listening to the dispensationalists.”
I’m just confused as to which ones I should listen to since you now see to pooh-pooh some of the ideas of dispensationalists -- in fact the very things that makes dispensationalism what it is -- and complain that I quote “systematic theologians of different stripes ad nauseum”, which I don’t do but perhaps it seems that way. I’ve only used them in this case to demonstrate your lack of fidelity to The System®. (Which I applaud, BTW. It’s the first step to recovery.)
The Church at the time of the Reformation called this form of heresy Socinianism.
Gee, God must have have gotten his promises mixed up,
Gen. 13:14-17, “And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: For all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever. And I will make thy seed as the dust of the earth: so that if a man can number the dust of the earth, then shall thy seed also be numbered. Arise, walk through the land in the length of it and in the breadth of it; for I will give it unto thee.”
Gen. 15:13-18, “And he said unto Abram, Know of a surety that thy seed shall be a stranger in a land that is not theirs, and shall serve them; and they shall afflict them four hundred years; And also that nation, whom they shall serve, will I judge: and afterward shall they come out with great substance. And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates”
Moses got it wrong,
Ex 12:25 And it shall come to pass, when ye be come to the land which the LORD will give you, according as he hath promised, that ye shall keep this service.
Joshua got it wrong,
Jos 23:15 Therefore it shall come to pass, [that] as all good things are come upon you, which the LORD your God promised you; so shall the LORD bring upon you all evil things, until he have destroyed you from off this good land which the LORD your God hath given you.
Nehemiah got it wrong,
Neh 9:23 Their children also multipliedst thou as the stars of heaven, and broughtest them into the land, concerning which thou hadst promised to their fathers, that they should go in to possess [it]
The writer of Hebrews got it wrong,
Hbr 11:9 By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as [in] a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
Oh, I get it now, according to the special ORS spiritualizing hermeneutic, just like Israel morphs into the church ever time so that their promises become the church's, so does the extensive land promised to Israel morphs into a city over time and maybe some other promises of God morph into something different over time.
By the way, I'm sure you noticed that the writer of Hebrews makes a clear distinction between “these/they” and “us” in Hebrews 11:39-40, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”
“I don’t see it because it is not there, in spite of your futurist explanations. I have not swallowed the kool aid. Only followers of The System® imagine modern, secularist Israel and Russia and China and the Common Market and Iraq and the World Bank and Nicolae Carpathia in the pages of Daniel. It’s the fantasy they have devised. Do not fault the rest of us for not playing along in your Fantasy Prophecy League.”
Talk does not take the place of interpretation. Explain Daniel 9:26 in the context of vss 25 and 27.
The promises to Abraham were a nation, blessing and land. No mention of a city. --enat
Genesis tells us:
When the sun had gone down and it was dark, behold, a smoking fire pot and a flaming torch passed between these pieces.
18 On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, “To your offspring I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the river Euphrates,
19 the land of the Kenites, the Kenizzites, the Kadmonites,
20 the Hittites, the Perizzites, the Rephaim,
21 the Amorites, the Canaanites, the Girgashites and the Jebusites.”
Genesis does not make mention any city in particular, nor of the world as a whole.
Hebrews tells us:
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to a place that he was to receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going.
9 By faith he went to live in the land of promise, as in a foreign land, living in tents with Isaac and Jacob, heirs with him of the same promise.
10 For he was looking forward to the city that has foundations, whose designer and builder is God.
And Paul in Romans tells us:
For the promise to Abraham and his offspring that he would be heir of the world did not come through the law but through the righteousness of faith.
that what was promised to Abraham was the kosmos, the world.
Are these different promises? Promises that didn't get recorded that Paul and whoever it was that wrote Hebrews somehow knew about? Or could it be that the (God breathed, inspired) new testament writers did not interpret the old testament the way the modern dispensationalist school does?
Thanks. Another example of how an unbiblical literalism invented by holders of The System® interferes with the infallible interpretation of the OT by the writer of the NT.
“that what was promised to Abraham was the kosmos, the world.”
That’s nonsense. The promise in Romans 4:13, “For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith” refers to the promise to Abraham in Gen. 12:3, “And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed”.
The heir referred to is Christ Gal. 3:16 “To thy seed, which is Christ”. Christ is the heir of the world, (Rev 11:15) “…The kingdoms of this world are become [the kingdoms] of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever”, the ends of the earth are his possession and it is in him that Abraham and we are blessed.
But the promise of blessing was only one of the promises to Abraham; there still remains the promise of the land as an eternal inheritance.
Book Mark!
Paul in Romans 4 does not limit the promise to any particular aspect of God’s covenant with Abraham, so I suspect The System® is forcing you to your conclusion.
But Romans 4 says that Abraham would be the heir of the world. In fact you admitted the promise was to Abraham. Now, we know that ultimately applies to Christ, who is the Seed to whom the promises were made. And we also know from Hebrews 11 that ultimately it is a spiritual promise and fulfillment in the “better country” that God is preparing for all His people (not just the Jewish remnant).
The bottom line is that you have absolutely no basis for dividing the promises to Abraham/the Seed along the categories dictated by The System®.
“The bottom line is that you have absolutely no basis for dividing the promises to Abraham/the Seed along the categories dictated by The System®.”
I’m beginning to think that your ORS has a lot in common with Marcion’s view of the Old Testament and Israel.
God gave a specific promise to Abraham concerning the land, to the point of showing it to him and telling him to walk through it. He even went so far as to perform the covenant binding ritual saying, “And thou shalt go to thy fathers in peace; thou shalt be buried in a good old age. But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full. And it came to pass, that, when the sun went down, and it was dark, behold a smoking furnace, and a burning lamp that passed between those pieces. In the same day the LORD made a covenant with Abram, saying, Unto thy seed have I given this land, from the river of Egypt unto the great river, the river Euphrates”.
He punished the children of Israel for not believing His promise of the land. I think I will go along what the scriptures say rather than what the ORS wants it to say.
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