HOW SOME ANTI-MORMONS MIS USE THE TRUTH. (OPEN)

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[fproy2222]

I am tired of how some anti-Mormons here at FR, and other places, mis-use the history and teachings of my Church.

This was posted:::::::::

“”””” President John Taylor stated: "Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); “””””

Here is the part of the article not posted for you and as you read it, you will find that it does not say the things about my church that is implued by leaving out large parts of the text.

Please note, the address is to us, the LDS people, from one of the church leaders at the time, telling us that we are not doing what we should and that we must do better.

In no way is President Taylor saying what the original post says he is saying..

Notice how the “…” jump the first part of the post into another sentence and into another thought.

The information is taken out of context and turned into an untruth.

I have put “{{}}” around the parts posted to make it easer to see the misuse of this document.

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We have first to learn submission to the will of God ourselves, through various trials, persecutions, and the development of our weaknesses and imperfections, and thereby learn to appreciate the goodness and blessings that flow from him. We must see that we ourselves first learn obedience, and then teach others. But how can we teach others a lesson which we have not learned ourselves?

There is not nation now that acknowledges that hand of God; there is not a king, potentate, nor ruler that acknowledges his jurisdiction. We talk about {{ Christianity }}, but it {{ is a perfect pack of nonsense }}. Men talk about civilization; but I do not want to say much about that, for I have seen enough of it. Myself and hundreds of the Elders around me have seen its pomp, parade, and glory; and what is it? It is a sounding brass and a tinkling symbol; it is as corrupt as hell; {{ and the Devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work that the Christianity of the nineteenth century. }}

(Journal of Discourses, 26 vols. [London: Latter-day Saints' Book Depot, 1854-1886], 6: 167.)

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[dangus]

Gee, if he were predicting that the coming of a great civil war was out of South Carolina, I’d be impressed. Instead, he’s predicting that troubles in South Carolina will presage the coming of Christ... which just means that he reads the signs of the times enough to con people and appeal to their angst. Seems he predicted the civil war would be the destruction of the entire Earth, wherein those he considered the demonic races (that is, blacks) would rise up an afflict those he considered the blessed race (that is, whites).

[colorcountry]

Mormonism misuses the truth of the Bible.

So many Bible passages are distorted by the teachings of Mormonism. Keep in mind that if you take the context of a verse into account, you will see that it does not teach Mormon doctrine. Their interpretation is read into the text.

Salvation by works
The Two Stick of Ezekiel
The “Other Sheep” in America?
Three Heavens
Baptism for the Dead

[sirchtruth]

12 I prophesy, in the name of the Lord God, that the commencement of the adifficulties which will cause much bloodshed previous to the coming of the Son of Man will be in South Carolina.

...and this is referring too?

I prophesy the moon will reflect the sun's blistering brilliance after it's fire falls gently in the west each night.

Obama supporters aren't even hoodwinked enough to think JS was a prophet! But, I guess I asked and you at least tried to show!

[fproy2222]

He is degrading Christianity either way you look at it.

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Have you read the full talk, or are you just going by the sound bites someone else created and you do not have any idea about what was really said?

Same with the rest of the sound bites that look copied and pasted.

[fproy2222]

I don’t see a contextual difference between the full statement and the excerpted one.

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Over the years i have meet many who do not care to know the differences.

[dangus]

In fairness, what does John Brown have to do with anything? He wasn’t an agent of the union. IN fact, the union saw to it that he was defeated and hanged.

As much as silly confederate-wannabes make out of John Brown, the beginning of the Civil War was when the South attacked a union outpost, despite the retreat of the union forces from several positions to that one outpost.

[dangus]

“Baptism for the Dead” is the one that irks me the most. Mormons read it as “Baptism OF the Dead.”

[ejonesie22]

Oh yeah in context it is MUCH better...

[SkyDancer]

When Mormon evidence is presented here it's usually in a forum where you can't debate. When Mormon theology is compared to Christian theology it is way off base.

Who does the LDS say God is?

Who is Jesus in Mormon theology ....

The LDS church says no difference but when you read their theology it is completely different.

[GLDNGUN]

Have you read the full talk, or are you just going by the sound bites someone else created and you do not have any idea about what was really said?

Same with the rest of the sound bites that look copied and pasted.

CLASSIC.

Bring up quotes from LDS leaders and the faithful scream "OUT OF CONTEXT!" Then, when you ask them to demonstrate the difference of what was reportedly said and what was "actually" said, they are unable to do so in any coherent fashion.

I read what was posted. Isn't that what I was supposed to do? Do I have to read the entire D&C or JofD to understand what was said? LOL Hardly. That's like telling someone they have to read the entire dictionary to understand what the meaning of any particular word definition is.

Instead of dealing of vagueness, show us FROM THE CONTEXT what he was saying.

Yes, I ABSOLUTELY did "copy and paste". And you should to when quoting someone. That way you get EVERY LETTER correct.

Again, I ask...do you agree with the statements of Taylor? Yes or no?

Are you prepared to say that you would disagree with ANYONE, even an LDS prophet, who said such things? Yes or no?

[fproy2222]

Remember, this was a talk given by an LDS Church leader to LDS folks in the 1800’s, and it is about how they were not living up to Christian ideas and how they, the Mormons of the 1800’s, needed to improve their lives.

[fproy2222]

The LDS church says no difference but when you read their theology it is completely different.

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Looks to me like you get your information from outside sources, I knew that before I joined God’s living Church and I see it spoken about often.

[Proverbs 3-5]

In fairness, what does John Brown have to do with anything? He wasn’t an agent of the union. IN fact, the union saw to it that he was defeated and hanged. As much as silly confederate-wannabes make out of John Brown, the beginning of the Civil War was when the South attacked a union outpost, despite the retreat of the union forces from several positions to that one outpost.

The point was the "prophecy" cited implied that the Civil War started in SC. You could argue that, and you could also argue that there were a great many causes... of which the firing at Ft Sumter was one of many catalysts. I'm taking sides on who started the Civil War. There were other events leading up to the firing on Ft. Sumter that led to the Civil War, not just that one event in SC.

[CommerceComet]

Pretty weak. By 1843, it was pretty common knowledge that South Carolina was the real hot-button region over southern grievances. The biggest surprise to contemporary analysts would be that it wound up taking over 15 years to blow up.

Are we supposed to ignore the rest of this chapter?

13 It may probably arise through the slave question. This a voice declared to me, while I was praying earnestly on the subject, December 25th, 1832.

It "may probably?" Pretty wishy-washy for a divine declaration.

15 Joseph, my son, if thou livest until thou art eighty-five years old, thou shalt see the face of the Son of Man ; therefore alet this suffice, and trouble me no more on this matter.

Since Joseph Smith was born in 1805, late December, 1890 was a pretty important date. Exactly when and where did Christ return? Apparently, Christ returned in all his glory and no one (including the Mormons) noticed.

[Godzilla]

Fred, the excerpted portions do not change the intent or content of the enlarged citation -
Who was Taylor talking about - Christianity
What did he say about it -
1) pack of nonsense
2) a tool of the Devil (condensed even further)

Absolutely nothing in your expanded citation even comes close to resembling an encouragement of lds. Perhaps the WHOLE speech, but not this polemic directed against Christians.

[SkyDancer]

Oh Ok - so first tell us all about planet Kolob and the meeting Adam had with Jesus and Lucifer sitting at the same table and the argument going around was who will be the savior of the world? Is that wrong like from some outside source or the teachings of the LDS church?

[fproy2222]

Who was Taylor talking about - Christianity

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re read

He is talking about how the Saints at the time were not doing well in living the teachings of Christ.

Of course, there are many who want it to say what you say it says.

[GLDNGUN]

Remember, this was a talk given by an LDS Church leader to LDS folks in the 1800’s, and it is about how they were not living up to Christian ideas and how they, the Mormons of the 1800’s, needed to improve their lives.

YOU are the one taking things out of context. Several posters have already said they see NO DIFFERENCE between the excerpted quote and the whole quote. Either you are the one twisting Taylor's words OR Taylor was so incoherent and confusing in his speech that it is unclear.

As I've already pointed out, Taylor's quote you brought to the table is NOT isolated. I've provided several more. Yet, you ignore those and sweep them under the "context" rug. You have failed in every respect to make your point with the original quote and now have a list of quotes to explain your way out of.

Can you bring yourself to disavow yourself of what those quotes say? Yes or no?

I think deep down you KNOW that Taylor's quotes are self-explanatory and that he was bashing Christianity. I think that is why you won't disavow yourself of them. Can't disagree with a "prophet of God", can you?

[GLDNGUN]

He is talking about how the Saints at the time were not doing well in living the teachings of Christ.

Are you suggesting that Taylor was referring to Mormons when he said "Christianity" in your quote?

[fproy2222]

Instead of dealing of vagueness, show us FROM THE CONTEXT what he was saying.

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I post it in my opening comments to this thread and you say this as if I did not.

Yet you made this comment as if I did not.