Posted on 03/22/2009 2:43:38 PM PDT by Quix
The following verse shreds the Replacementarian, Preterist, Amil perspectives wholesale.
Zechariah 8:23 (The Message) 23A Message from God-of-the-Angel-Armies:
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23 This is what the LORD Almighty says: "In those days ten men from all languages and nations will take firm hold of one Jew by the hem of his robe and say, 'Let us go with you, because we have heard that God is with you.' "
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"At that time, ten men speaking a variety of languages will grab the sleeve of one Jew, hold tight, and say, 'Let us go with you. We've heard that God is with you.'"
CLEARLY THIS PROPHECY--YET TO BE FULFILLED--JEWS ARE STILL A DERISION IN THE WORLD--now with the whole world virtually wanting to wipe them out of existence as they have been since 70 AD.
CLEARLY this verse demonstrated, shows, proves that God IS GOING TO CHANGE THAT DRAMATICALLY.
The children of Jacob WILL BE YET AGAIN FAVORED OF ALL PEOPLES IN ALL THE WORLD--so much so--that non-Jews will seek affiliation with them as a way of gaining some of God's favor so wholesale shown to the children of Jacob.
I realize this is no surprise to Dispy's.
However, the RAPs (Replacementarians, Amils, Postmils et al seem to have many such verses excised from their rubber Bibles. I thought it the loving thing to do to share it with them in the face of their loss of such priceless unchanging words of Almighty God.
END TIMES, DREAMS, VISIONS, PROPHECY PING LIST PING.
Given the increased devastations looming over Israel . . . I thought this might be a timely reminder of
GOD ALMIGHTY’S ATTITUDE TOWARD ISRAEL.
“Certain parties”, I suspect, have never actually read any commentators of the “Replacementarian, Amil, Preterist (RAP) Perspectives “.
There have been endless pages of such posted hereon.
They never made the least bit of rational sense, much less Biblical sense, to me.
Regardless, that verse settle the issue overwhelmingly.
Quix.....God’s timing on such things is a non-essential. In these urgent days, what matters isn’t what divides us -it’s unity in the Body. Why? Because men’s souls are at stake.
The Covenant God made with Israel has never been canceled. (Romans 11:26 and 11:29)
Ping for later
INDEED.
Though men need to know . . . for their Salvation’s sake, That GOD’S PROMISES ARE DEPENDABLE.
The Covenant God made with Israel has never been canceled. (Romans 11:26 and 11:29)
INDEED. AND NEVER WILL BE.
ALMIGHTY GOD OF THE ANGEL ARMIES HAS DECLARED IT FROM EVERYLASTING TO EVERLASTING.
Thanks for the bump.
I don’t think I’ve ever seen this volume of prophecy related threads here, and I’ve been here a long time.
Essentially, those perspectives try vainly to insist
that God has mushed the children of Jacob into the Christian church
AND CEASED TO CONSIDER THE CHILDREN OF JACOB AS ANYTHING UNIQUE OR SPECIAL BEYOND BEING ROUTINE GENERIC CHRISTIANS IN THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH—THOSE RELATIVE FEW THAT HAVE BECOME SUCH.
That’s not even Biblical according to
CHRISTIANS BEING GRAFTED IN !!!TO!!!! !!!!THEIR!!! VINE AS ADOPTED CHILDREN OF ABRAHAM, ISAAC AND JACOB.
Seems to me, that’s the crux of it.
And the reason why the term REPLACEMENTARIAN IS so well earned.
Yeah. The fulfillment pace is quickening startlingly. Events are happening more and more dramatically.
It’s not clear how long we’ll be able to relatively freely get the word out.
Watchmen are obligated before God to do what they can.
One country I know of already persecutes particularly Christians who believe in The Second Coming; The Great Tribulation etc. vs generic Preterists, Amils etc.
For example, for the passage you cite, I would not be surprised to read someone claim the Jew prophesied was Paul and that it occurred before 70 AD/CE ...
Of course it is completely out of context with Zechariah's propechy but how else can preterism be consistent ? The revisionist theology forces all references to Jerusalem's future to be spiritual. It makes me think it is a very clever cult.
Of course it is completely out of context with Zechariah’s propechy but how else can preterism be consistent ? The revisionist theology forces all references to Jerusalem’s future to be spiritual. It makes me think it is a very clever cult.
I think you are right on all counts.
Perhaps it’s perverse entertainment watching them twist and squirm to mangle their ALICE-IN-WONDERLAND-RUBBER-THEOLOGY into such contortions.
However, when they are forced to do so, it does give THINKING AND HONEST lurkers a chance to ponder such more fruitfully.
Thanks for your kind post.
22. many . . . strong nations . . . in Jerusalem--In contrast to the few and weak Jews now building the temple and city, then such shall be their influence that many and strong nations shall come to worship Jehovah their God in Jerusalem (Isaiah 60:3, 66:23).23. ten--a definite number for an indefinite. So in Leviticus 22:26, Numbers 14:22.
of all languages of the nations--that is, of nations of all languages (compare Isaiah 66:18, Revelation 7:9).
take hold of the skirt--a gesture of suppliant entreaty as to a superior. Compare Isaiah 3:6, 4:1, on a different occasion. The Gentiles shall eagerly seek to share the religious privileges of the Jew. The skirt with a fringe and blue ribbon upon it (Numbers 15:38, Deuteronomy 22:12) was a distinguishing badge of a Jew.
God is with you--the effect produced on unbelievers in entering the assemblies of the Church (1 Corinthians 14:25). But primarily, that produced on the nations in witnessing the deliverance of the Jews by Cyrus. Finally, that to be produced on the nations by the future grand interposition of Messiah in behalf of His people. (Jamieson, Fausset, Brown Comentary)
8:20 Thus saith the LORD of hosts; [It shall] yet [come to pass], that there shall come l people, and the inhabitants of many cities: (l) He declares the great zeal that God would give the Gentiles to come to his Church, and to unite with the Jews in his true religion, which would be in the kingdom of Christ. (1599 Geneva Study Bible)
(v. 23): Ten men of different nations and languages shall take hold of the skirt of him that is a Jew, begging of him not to outgo them, but to take them along with him. This intimates the great honour they have for a Jew, as one of the chosen people of God, and therefore well worthy their acquaintance; they cannot all come to take him by the hand, or embrace him in their arms, but are ambitious to take hold of the skirt of his robe, to touch the hem of his garment, saying, We will go with you, for we have heard that God is with you. The gospel was preached to the Jews first (for of that nation the apostles were) and by them it was carried to the Gentiles. St. Paul was a Jew whose skirt many took hold of when they welcomed him as an angel of God, and begged him to take them along with him to Christ; thus the Greeks took hold of Philip’s skirt, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus, Jn. 12:21. Note, It is the privilege of the saints that they have God with them, have him among them—the knowledge, and fear, and worship of him; they have his favour and gracious presence, and this should invite us into communion with them. It is good being with those who have God with them, and those who join themselves to the Lord must join themselves to his disciples; if we take God for our God, we must take his people for our people, cast in our lot among them, and be willing to take our lot with them. (Matthew Henry Complete Commentary)
He pursues the same subject in this verse; for as he had before said, that the nations would willingly come to worship God, and that each would encourage his brother to undertake this pious and holy expedition, so he now adds, that ten men would lay hold on the border of a Jew’s garment: Ten men shall then take hold of the skirt of a Jew. He shows here more clearly what I have briefly referred to — that there would be no need of arms, or of any compulsion, in order to draw or compel the nations to engage in God’s service; for even ten would of themselves accompany one Jew; and it is a proof of a very great readiness when ten surrender themselves to be ruled by one. As one Jew could not be sufficient to draw so many nations, the Prophet declares that there would be everywhere a union of faith, so that those, before wholly alienated from God, would desire to join themselves as friends, or rather as companions to the Jews. He says, From all languages. By these words he amplifies the miracle; for there cannot be a union between men far distant, especially when they are of different languages, as they are barbarians to one another. When the Prophet then says that they would come from all languages, and unite together, it more fully appears to be God’s work; for there is nothing here to be ascribed to human contrivances. It must then be that the hearts of those who cannot express their minds, and can hardly give a sign, are united together by the hidden power of the Spirit. We now perceive the Prophet’s object in this verse.But he uses in the last clause a phrase different from the one he employed before — Let us go with you, for we have heard that with you is God. He had said, “Let us go to seek Jehovah, and to entreat his face;” but now he says “Let us go with you.” But yet he handles and confirms the same thing; for the nations could not have sought God without following the Jews going before them. For when any one separates himself from others, it so happens that he is led astray, and feeds on much that is very absurd, as we see to be the case with proud and morose men, who invent strange and monstrous things; for they shun society, and seem not to themselves to be wise, until they put off every feeling of humanity. The character then of faith has also this in it — that the elect, while they themselves obey God, desire to have many associates in this obedience, and many fellow-disciples in true religion. The Prophet thus intended to point out two things: be had said before — “Let us go to seek God;” and now — “We will go with you.” What else is this but to seek God? But he expresses more now — that the nations declare that they would come to seek God for this end — that they might learn from others, like rude beginners, who have their fellow-scholars as their teachers; so that every one who had made some progress, was to preside over others, and those as yet commencing, and still in the first elements of knowledge, were humbly to connect themselves with others better informed. Shame prevents many from making in this manner any advancement, and so they ever remain sunk in ignorance.
The Prophet at the same time not only commends humility, but also exhorts all God’s children to cultivate unity and concord. For whosoever tears asunder the Church of God, disunites himself from Christ, who is the head, and who would have all his members to be united together.
We now then understand that God ought to be sought in order to be rightly worshipped by us; and also, that he ought to be thus sought, not that each may have his own peculiar religion, but that we may be united together, and that every one who sees his brethren going before, and excelling in gifts, may be prepared to follow them, and to seek benefit from their labors. It is indeed true that we ought to disregard the whole world; and to embrace only the truth of God; for it is a hundred times better to renounce the society of all mortals, and union with them, then to withdraw ourselves from God; but when God shows himself as our leader, the Prophet teaches us that we ought mutually to stretch forth our hand and unitedly to follow him.
We have again to notice at the end of the verse what I have already referred to — that the nations would come, not compelled by force of arms or by violence, but drawn by hearing alone. We have heard. By hearing the Prophet means here the doctrine of salvation everywhere diffused; for there would be no care nor concern for worshipping were we not taught; for faith, as Paul says, is by hearing; and so prayer proceeds from faith. (Romans 10:17.) In short, the Prophet means that the knowledge of religion would be through the preaching of the truth, which would rouse all nations to the duty of worshipping God. He now again confirms what we have also mentioned — that the Jews would have the precedence of all nations; for it appears that God would be among them. We hence see that primacy is not ascribed to the Jews in being leaders to others, because they excelled others by their own virtue or dignity, but because God presided over them. Then God is ever to be sought, though we may avail ourselves of the labors of men, and follow them when they show us the right way. We must ever bear this in mind — that those only exhort truly and honestly, who not only do so by word, but who really prove what they feel by their conduct; according to what the Prophet has said — Go will I also; and he says the same now — Let us go, or, we shall go with you. For many there are who are strenuous enough in stimulating others; but their vain garrulity appears evident; for while they bid others to run, they are standing still; and while they vehemently encourage others, they themselves delay and take their rest. Now follows — (John Calvin's Commentary)
Once again you folks mistake this for a preterist issue, which it is not. It is all those who refuse to accept the dispensational futurist rot who are opposed to your way of thinking about race-based theology.
If folks cannot figure that out it is no wonder these folks are clueless when interpreting the OT prophets.
What a lot of slipping and sliding and obfuscating to avoid facing the clearly stark simple truths of the verse.
REPLACEMENTARIAN, AMIL, PRETERIST THEOLOGY TEACHES THAT
The Children of Jacob have been supplanted by the Christian Believer and mushed into the CHRISTIAN VINE
instead of the BIBLICAL TRUTHS THAT
CHRISTIANS HAVE BEEN ADOPTED, GRAFTED INTO JACOB’S VINE THROUGH CHRIST’S BLOOD.
Further,
REPLACEMENTARIAN, AMIL, PRETERIST THEOLOGY TEACHES THAT
SINCE WHAT—AD 70?—GOD NO LONGER GIVES A MOMENT’S THOUGHT TO THE CHILDREN OF JACOB as being in any kind of special class unto HIM at all. NOPE. ZIP, NONE. DONE. FINI WAY BACK WHEN—as far as the UNBIBLICAL
REPLACEMENTARIAN, AMIL, PRETERIST THEOLOGY TEACHES. Perhaps a scant few [denying even the Biblical 144,000!] may become Christians proportionally—subsumed into the BODY OF CHRIST AS MORE OR LESS ADOPTED CHRISTINIZED-FORMER-JEWS-NOW-GENTILES. But there’s no provision in the UNBIBLICAL
REPLACEMENTARIAN, AMIL, PRETERIST THEOLOGY for GOD TO HONOR, KEEP DISTINGUISHED, SEPARATE, HALLOWED HOLY UNTO HIM THE BLOOD CHILDREN OF JACOB.
Thankfully, there are some phrases and sentences in the commentaries above that do kind of acknowledge that God might sort of do that a little around the edges when no one’s looking. But mostly that’s fairly lost in the mass of pontifical words.
Thankfully, Zechariah had no such problem. He saw God’s simple truths ahead of time and stated them simply, clearly, straight-forwardly.
The Christian bookstores and airwaves are filled with similar doom-and-gloom, sensationalist nonsense. What you read on FR is just a reflection of the futurist rot that has infected the Church at large.
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