Bigotry against Mormons apparently acceptable in Utah LDS (OPEN)

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | March 20, 2009

[greyfoxx39]

Here is the response of a Utahn commenting on a Salt Lake Tribune online blog concerning HBO's attempt in its series "Big Love" to increase its revenues by publicly insulting the religious sensitivity of a minority religion: "Anything that gets the LDS "church's magical Mormon underwear in a twist is all right with me!!"

I write for a regional newspaper in Iowa. During the last election campaign, I suggested that Mitt Romney lost the Iowa caucus to Mike Huckabee primarily due to anti-Mormon bigotry. A reader argued that my opinion had no credence because I was a lay leader in the LDS Church.

The writer was either suggesting that I knew exactly what I was talking about and was therefore credible, or that I shouldn't be believed because I was a Mormon, which implies that the writer was a bigot.

-SNIP-

It is obvious to an outsider that Utah, or at least Salt Lake City, has within itself a deeply held culture of bigotry. A bigotry so ingrained in the cultural norm that the readers posting comments to the newspaper's blogs, apparently believing they are freethinking and ironic, are saying things online that would never be allowed into print if written about other groups.

[restornu]

When did you leave the Church?

[reaganaut]

Early 1990’s.

[Alamo-Girl]

Hmmm. Everything I would like to say in response to your ping and for your correspondents on this thread - I have just now posted to another thread over here.

[Stourme]

Yeah, sure. Which is why you sing “we thank the O God for a PROPHET” (singular), it is also why they only ever refer to the President as “the prophet” and the other 14 as “Apostles”.

If you watch General Conference that's coming up in a couple weeks, you'll notice a very interesting event. All the Apostles are sustained as Prophets, Seers, and Revelators.

All Latter-day Saints know this.

Even if they do go out in pairs 15 > 2, not equal to it. Rev. 11 only speaks of 2.

LOL!!! *SNORT* I'm just glad I wasn't drinking anything when I read that! That's.....well....a classic. I have a very broad sense of humor and this strikes me as the punch line of a very funny blond joke.

BTW, Your attempt at discrediting me by questioning my former LDS membership is pathetic.

As I showed above....I don't have to do a thing.

[Stourme]

All kidding aside...

FYI, Rev 11.

Revelation 11:3
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Rev 11 refers to these men as witnesses that prophesy.

Revelation 11:6
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

They have the power to control the elements. Know anyone like that? ... I do. 11:6 says they have the power, doesn't say they will actually smite the earth, only that they have the power to do so. That's the Priesthood or the authority to act in the name of God.

There is no one in all of Catholicism, protestants, or non-denominational churches that even claim to have that power. Or ever have.

And because of this fact, it's safe to say they will not come out of your church.

And because they do not come from Catholicism, protestants, or non-denominational churches the same faces will be here on FR, mocking and ridiculing them.

And then all the bibles, crosses, mocking, ridiculing won't save you.

[reaganaut]

It is truly sad you are so blinded. The LDS priesthood power is NOTHING. All power comes from GOD, but I testify the the so-called “priesthood power” of the LDS MOCKS GOD and is of Satan. The authority to act in the name of God COMES FROM GOD ALONE! Yet you apparently choose to walk in blindness and error.

I have NEVER seen an LDS priesthood holder control the elements, nor do I ever expect to. My authority, and the authority of all believers comes from Christ and Him alone, not some denomination.

YOU:
And because they do not come from Catholicism, protestants, or non-denominational churches the same faces will be here on FR, mocking and ridiculing them.

LOL.. That is just funny.

YOU:And then all the bibles, crosses, mocking, ridiculing won’t save you.

Not worried, Christ has ALREADY SAVED ME! I am washed in His precious blood. I am rasomed, healed, restored, and forgiven by the sacrifice of the Son of God on the Cross. NO ONE CAN EVER TAKE THAT AWAY FROM ME.

But do you have that same assurance? Do you know with 100% assurance that if you were to die today, that you would be in the presence of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost? Have you “done all you can do?” Somehow, I doubt that.

I have that assurance. And you can to, just drop the whole “religion” thing and seek after a “relationship” with Jesus Christ.

[SENTINEL]

"What ever "Bible" you're quoting from, you might want to check it...there seems to be some changes made to it."

What bible are YOU quoting form, Stourme ? The Joseph Smith translation ? Why not ? Do you agree with Brigham Young that it was a fraud ? Why does the LDS church only use a few small parts of it ?

[Godzilla]

They have the power to control the elements. Know anyone like that? ... I do. 11:6 says they have the power, doesn't say they will actually smite the earth, only that they have the power to do so. That's the Priesthood or the authority to act in the name of God.

Show me that they do it TODAY. Where are your miracles TODAY? Show us your Jannes and Jambres.

There is no one in all of Catholicism, protestants, or non-denominational churches that even claim to have that power. Or ever have.
And because of this fact, it's safe to say they will not come out of your church.

Bet'en your bars on this huh? Well they won't come out of mormonism either stormy because the mormonite priesthood is not valid - take a little time and really study Hebrews, you will find that Jesus terminated the Aaronic priesthood and holds the title of a non-transferrable Melkezadek authority. They will not come from out of anyone's church, but in most Christian views will be the prophets Elijah and either Moses or Enoch - Jews, not mormonites.

And then all the bibles, crosses, mocking, ridiculing won't save you.

No, Jesus already has and all your false priesthood will be serving the antichrist.

[Stourme]

... don’t remember Jesus Locked & Loaded, armed by his posse and returning fire. In fact, I distinctly remember reading he told Peter to put up his sword and went peacefully.

I don't remember Jesus ever saying there would be a Bible and it would be His only word...but that hasn't stopped you.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“I don’t remember Jesus ever saying there would be a Bible and it would be His only word...but that hasn’t stopped you.

You might want to pause and actually READ the Bible and see what it has to say before posting this.

Good deflection though from commenting on Joseph Smith’s death as a result of his horn dog activities!

[Stourme]

The authority to act in the name of God COMES FROM GOD ALONE!

ya think?

Yes. Ultimately all power is from God. But the mistake you make is not understanding that God gives righteous men the right to act in His stead.

Acts 8:17 - 20
17 Then laid they their hands on them, and they received the Holy Ghost.
18 And when Simon saw that through laying on of the apostles' hands the Holy Ghost was given, he offered them money,
19 Saying, Give me also this power, that on whomsoever I lay hands, he may receive the Holy Ghost.
20 But Peter said unto him, Thy money perish with thee, because thou hast thought that the gift of God may be purchased with money.

As you can clearly see....well...at least I can. That the power of God can be used by men whom God has authorized to do so.

I have NEVER seen an LDS priesthood holder control the elements,

That's too bad. I have seen some pretty amazing miracles by way of the priesthood.

nor do I ever expect to.

Well....seeing as you're not LDS..that's kind of a given isn't it?

And because they do not come from Catholicism, protestants, or non-denominational churches the same faces will be here on FR, mocking and ridiculing them.

LOL.. That is just funny.

Unfortunately it's not funny. It's true. Even with my sense of humor I can't find anything funny about that. The implications are too severe.

Not worried, Christ has ALREADY SAVED ME!

And now we come to the greatest heresy that satan has ever perpetrated on the human race.

No. You are not saved.

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

In the Saviors own words, you have to endure to the end in faith. Then you SHALL be saved.

Proclaiming yourself saved is blasphemy. It is supreme arrogance.

You have not endured to the end, therefore you can not be saved at this time.

Do you know with 100% assurance that if you were to die today, that you would be in the presence of God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost?

I'm guaranteed to have at least a five minute(or so) audience with the Savior. Now whether or not He allows me to stay, that's entirely up to Him. I very much hope so.

But as of now, as the scripture correctly points out, I haven't endured to the end yet.

[Stourme]

You might want to pause and actually READ the Bible and see what it has to say before posting this.

The Evangelical-ese translation := You might want to pause and start reading only the 10% of the Bible we tell you to and ignore all the rest like we do.

[Godzilla]

That's too bad. I have seen some pretty amazing miracles by way of the priesthood.

Any related to Jannes and Jambres? Documentation over fluff please.

And now we come to the greatest heresy that satan has ever perpetrated on the human race. No. You are not saved.

Oh, let me run and get some popcorn real quick

Matthew 10:22 22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Ah yes, the common tactic of pulling a verse out of context and waiving it around. Context Matt 10 - Jesus comissioning the 12 to go out. If you were applying this to all then you better remember not to bring a coat with you and leave your purse at home. Sorry to see that your knowledge of the Bible is so poor

In the Saviors own words, you have to endure to the end in faith. Then you SHALL be saved.
Proclaiming yourself saved is blasphemy. It is supreme arrogance.
You have not endured to the end, therefore you can not be saved at this time.

Then you better be prepared to hear the Savior's words stormy -

John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

John 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

John 6:47: "Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes has eternal life."

John 10:27-28: "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand."

No future tense used here at all. Why stormy? Where do you think the term gospel in the bible came from - good news of salvation. But then you are thinking like a mormon and mormonism requires you to obtain perfection in this life before God's grace can be effective, doesn't it. You cannot know in this life as a mormon if you paid your debt in full.
“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.…” —Moroni 10:32
“And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven.…Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” —Alma 11:37

The Christian has the promise of God that we are saved NOW. Why not take a look at the rest of the bible Storm

Romans 10:9-11, 13: “That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.(Note that there is no reference to waiting until the 'end') For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. …For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

1 Corinthians 15:1-4: “Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand; By which also ye are saved… (Notice past tense - 'are') For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures; And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures.”

2 Corinthians 5:17: "Therefore if any man is in Christ, He is a new creature, old things are passed away; behold all things are become new."

You are unable to pay the mormon debt of your own works
Isaiah 64:6: "For we are all as an unclean thing; and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rages..."

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace are ye saved through faith and this not of yourselves, it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast."

Romans 11:6: "And if by grace [unmerited favor or kindness], then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work."

Romans 3:28: "Therefore we conclude that a man is justified [declared righteous] by faith without the deeds of the law."

I'm guaranteed to have at least a five minute(or so) audience with the Savior. Now whether or not He allows me to stay, that's entirely up to Him. I very much hope so. But as of now, as the scripture correctly points out, I haven't endured to the end yet.

And where is 5 minutes guaranteed to be found in the bible storm? You are correct in one point - you don't know if you will have salvation even after you endured to the end.

“Have ye walked, keeping yourselves blameless before God? Could ye say, if ye were called to die at this time, within yourselves, that ye have been sufficiently humble? …Behold, are ye stripped of pride? I say unto you, if ye are not ye are not prepared to meet God. Behold ye must prepare quickly; for the kingdom of heaven is soon at hand, and such an one hath not eternal life.” — Alma 5:27-28

It is impossible to live the perfect, sinless life and God will not accept your filthy rags of pride to merit Celestial glory. There is only one way and that requires you to layaside the false teachings of mormonism and accept the truth found in the Bible and Jesus.

[greyfoxx39]

Amen!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“The Evangelical-ese translation := You might want to pause and start reading only the 10% of the Bible we tell you to and ignore all the rest like we do.

Actually, I advocate 100% of the BIBLE - just not the cultic writings of mormonism.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

The death of Joseph Smith, recounted by someone who was in the city at the time...

 

 

Alton Telegraph & Democratic Review

Vol. 9.                        Alton, Illinois, Saturday, July 6, 1844.                             No. 27.

Carthage, June 26, 1844, 8, P. M.

Since my arrival here this morning, my time has been spent in endeavors to procure correct information as to the unfortunate and lamentable state of things existing in this county, between the citizens on the one part, and the Mormons on the other, and if possible to ascertain what will prove the result of the whole affair. Thus far but little information, satisfactory to myself, has been acquired. All is excitement and confusion on the part of the citizens, with no concert of action, and united but in one sentiment; and that is, a fixed determination to rid themselves, in some way or other, of the obnoxious leaders of the Mormons. Up to this writing no collision whatever has taken place between the belligerent parties. Joseph Smith, and Hyrum Smith, have been tried, and bound over, for a riot, in destroying the printing press and materials of the "Nauvoo Expositor." The bail of each was fixed at five hundred dollars; which they readily procured. Both of them are now under arrest and in close confinement upon a charge of Treason. Their trial was fixed for this afternoon; but, upon the application of the accused, it has been postponed until Saturday of this week, the 29th inst. The prisoners have to be escorted to and from the jail to the Court-house, under the protection of an armed force. A more frightened being I have never looked upon than Joe Smith. His cheeks are blanched with fear, his limbs quiver under an insupportable consciousness of guilt; and like all tyrants, when stripped of their power, he exbitits in his every move and action, the craven spirit of a coward. The wonder and astonishment of ALL is, how so base a poltroon ever could have [wielded] such [----ed] power over [several] thousand human beings, as he has.

...

 

Their statements of the conduct of Joe Smith, and the leaders of the Mormons, are astounding almost beyond credence; and if the half they publicly state is true, a more depraved, unprincipled, desperate set of scoundrels never were congregated together. I was informed by them that a robbery of some extent has been commited in Alton by order of "JOE;" and also in the neighboring town of Saint Charles. Their lives have been openly threatened by the Mormons, and they regard their own destruction inevitable, unless Joe and Hyrum Smith, as well as a few other of the leaders, are placed beyond the power of doing injury. Notwithstanding the accumulated wrongs and injuries inflicted upon the citizens, by the Mormons, there is a commendable spirit on the part of the former, only to hold the leaders responsible; and the convictions of my mind are, that before they disband, a desperate effort will be made to visit summary punishment upon the two Smiths, and possibly one or two others at Nauvoo. The citizens state openly, that it is now reduced to the alternative, that either they in a body must abondon the county of Hancock and their property, or the leaders of the Mormons must quit the country. A more deplorable, unfortunate state of things never existed in any community; and when you hear the grievances of the citizens portrayed by them, your sympathies at once become aroused in their behalf. There is, however, no excuse for a departure from the requisitions of the law. If there was any, or could be any, under any circumstances, it would be found in the case of the citizens of this county. You need not be at all surprised to hear, at any time, of the destruction of the two Smiths by the populace. The Governor has placed a guard of fifty men to protect the jail in which they are confined from attack, and destruction; but judging from what I hear and see I entertain but little hope of the success of his efforts....

 

At about six o'clock this evening, a body of citizens from Hancock county, numbering about five hundred, assembled in the vicinity of the jail at Carthage, where the above three persons were confined, and made an attack upon it. The two Smiths and Richards were well provided with arms, and fired upon the citizens, wounding three of them, but not dangerously. This increased the indignation and excitement of the citizens; and the result was, the death of the three persons above named. The town of Warsaw is in a high state of excitement, the men all under arms, sentinels stationed at every accessible point, and the women and children all removed to other places. They anticipate an attack from the Mormons so soon as they shall hear of the death of their Prophet and two of their principal leaaders. I left Nauvoo at seven o'clock this evening, and arrived at this place a few moments since. When I left they of course had not heard of the death of the Smiths and Richards; but I do not entertain the belief they will rise against the citizens.

 

I learn that, in addition to the two Smiths and Richards, a fourth Mormon, by the name of Phelps, who I am informed was a member of the City Council, was also killed; making the aggregate four Mormons, who have atoned for their outrages upon the citizens with their lives. The three individuals from among the citizens who are wounded, are Messrs. Wills, Gallaher, and Voorhees. I had a personal interview with Mr. Wills, who informs me that he was shot by Joe Smith, who fired a six barreled revolving pistol in the crowd before he was shot.

[Stourme]

[Godzilla rudely proclaims] Any related to Jannes and Jambres? Documentation over fluff please.

Matthew 7:6
Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.

Matthew 10:22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

[Godzilla calls the kettle black] Ah yes, the common tactic of pulling a verse out of context and waiving it around.

[Godzilla]Context Matt 10 -
Jesus comissioning the 12 to go out. If you were applying this to all then you better remember not to bring a coat with you and leave your purse at home.

A prime example of the Evangelical Wash Cycle(tm). Throw that scripture in the wash cycle put it on extra spin and not even the original author would recognize it.

[Godzilla incorrectly states]The Christian has the promise of God that we are saved NOW.

If anyone were to believe your interpretation, Jesus in Matt 10, should never have had to say "but he that endureth to the end shall be saved".

According to you it was a moot point because, according to you, they were already saved.

But as the Lord so often does, He teaches a principle to a few that applies to everyone.

According to your version Judas was saved the moment he accepted Jesus as the Son of God. And as a result, is at this moment enjoying eternal life. Regardless if he betrayed Jesus or not. Because according to you current choices don't matter, Judas was saved the moment he became a Christian.

However if you apply my reasoning, Judas was picked to be an apostle by Jesus from among His followers. However, Judas failed to "endure to the end" as the Savior taught was necessary for eternal life and will face his actions at the judgment.

Your spin cycle version simply doesn't make since.

[Godzilla witlessly proclaimed] Sorry to see that your knowledge of the Bible is so poor

I epic fail at being an evangelical.

[Stourme correctly states]
In the Saviors own words, you have to endure to the end in faith. Then you SHALL be saved. Proclaiming yourself saved is blasphemy. It is supreme arrogance. You have not endured to the end, therefore you can not be saved at this time.

[Godzilla lists several scriptures then says] No future tense used here at all.

This is a very bad strawman. And a truly horrific use of logic.

It assumes that in every conversation the Lord has, He has to use a redundant set of instructions with ever sentence. For example, if I ask someone to go to the kitchen and make me a sandwich, do I have to also instruct them to turn on the light, open the fridge, how to make the sandwich, close the fridge, and turn off the light every single subsequent time?

[Godzilla wrongfully states] You cannot know in this life as a mormon if you paid your debt in full.

You are quite wrong.

“Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.…” —Moroni 10:32

[Stourme makes a humorous reference to the judgement]
I'm guaranteed to have at least a five minute(or so) audience with the Savior.

[Which goes right over Godzilla's head]
And where is 5 minutes guaranteed to be found in the bible storm?

Faith in Jesus Christ is only the first step towards eternal life.

John 3:5
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

Matthew 7:21
21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Matthew 10:22
22 And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.

Faith in Christ, following His commandments, and being faithful to the end of your life are the requirements of eternal life.

[SwankyC]

I would have assumed in Salt Lake that anyone who was not LDS would be in such a minority that they would be the ones who felt (or imagined) bigotry

You would have assumed wrong. I've been in South Jordan, Utah since Jan 2005. The population, from what I understand,is actually only about half mo nowadays and I gotta tell you - Mormons are every bit the bunch of bigots you doubt they are. My children have ZERO friends outside of their private Baptist school because mormons wont let their children play with mine.

I've been laid off (in larger groups of people) twice in the past year and it sure as hell wasn't the mormons that got laid off with me.

If I could sell my house, we would've been outta here mid-late last year.

[Stourme]

[aMorePerfectUnion said unconvincingly]
Actually, I advocate 100% of the BIBLE

Evangelicals should redo the Bible again so that it correctly reflects their doctrine. Then there wouldn't be any disputes.

It should have two sections:

Section 1 titled "Be Ye Saved". It will only be one page long and will only contain one sentence; "Say you believe in Jesus and you'll be saved right this very second!"

Section 2 would be titled, "Optional stuff that has nothing to do with your salvation. See Section 1"

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Stormy,

you wrote, “Evangelicals should redo the Bible again so that it correctly reflects their doctrine. Then there wouldn’t be any disputes.”

Actually, I don’t know a single evangelical who thinks the way your straw man does.

But you should certainly get as much joy out of knocking that straw man over as you probably had stuffing him!

BUT, it certainly is a way to try to draw attention away from your claim that Joseph Smith died as a martyr, instead of a criminal.

He died a criminal, shaking with pallor as most despots do when someone catches them. Rough frontier justice, but justice all the same.