Bigotry against Mormons apparently acceptable in Utah LDS (OPEN)

Salt Lake Tribune ^ | March 20, 2009

[greyfoxx39]

Here is the response of a Utahn commenting on a Salt Lake Tribune online blog concerning HBO's attempt in its series "Big Love" to increase its revenues by publicly insulting the religious sensitivity of a minority religion: "Anything that gets the LDS "church's magical Mormon underwear in a twist is all right with me!!"

I write for a regional newspaper in Iowa. During the last election campaign, I suggested that Mitt Romney lost the Iowa caucus to Mike Huckabee primarily due to anti-Mormon bigotry. A reader argued that my opinion had no credence because I was a lay leader in the LDS Church.

The writer was either suggesting that I knew exactly what I was talking about and was therefore credible, or that I shouldn't be believed because I was a Mormon, which implies that the writer was a bigot.

-SNIP-

It is obvious to an outsider that Utah, or at least Salt Lake City, has within itself a deeply held culture of bigotry. A bigotry so ingrained in the cultural norm that the readers posting comments to the newspaper's blogs, apparently believing they are freethinking and ironic, are saying things online that would never be allowed into print if written about other groups.

[reaganaut]

Well, my expectations of you coming to Jesus of the Bible, repenting of your heresies, leaving the LDS, and accepting salvation (exaltation) by grace alone are not very high either. Yet I will persevere.

[Stourme]

Of the witnesses that left the church, most believed that Joseph was at best a fallen prophet, the church changed its doctrines in error and changed revelations against God's will.

Yes. And some became total enemies of the Church.

Which increases your dilemma 1000 fold.

They could have made up any fantastic story they wanted to. They could have claimed Joseph Smith bewitched them. They could have said anything. They had every motivation to do so. They hated Joseph Smith. They hated the Church.

But even the most vile of these betrayers had a line they wouldn't cross. They would not mock God by denying they saw the angel.

That is the strongest testimony that a person could possibly give. It's completely trust worthy.

These men saw the angel and the plates.

And if an angel, sent from God, has information that I need, then I want to hear it. I certainly wouldn't want to be found fighting against that angel. That would be scary.

[Godzilla]

This is not a "Mormon" website. It's an anti-mormon site. This is deceptive advertising for a website.

It is put together by both active and inactive mormons, and if you bother to read it, present both sides of the arguements in a neutral manner. It is not a blogging site, but a presentation of referenced materials, nor are they seeking others to come join their little clic. So, poisioning the water may work for the TBM, but lurkers here are a bit more discerning and are capable of reading both sides of the evidence and make their informed decisions.

Why you decided to involve the RM on a trival matter such as this is questionable.

[colorcountry]

What if that angel is sent from Satan? Wouldn’t you want to know?

2 Corinthians 11:13-15

13 For such men are false apostles, deceitful workers, disguising themselves as apostles of Christ. 14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light. 15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.

[Religion Moderator]

I'm not the arbiter of fact, truth, logic, etc. Such disagreements should be argued on thread.

[Stourme]

Well, my expectations of you coming to Jesus of the Bible, repenting of your heresies, leaving the LDS, and accepting salvation (exaltation) by grace alone are not very high either. Yet I will persevere.

1. coming to Jesus of the Bible

Already have thanks. But I completely reject the creeds and doctrines that sprang from the Nicean creed.

2. repenting of your heresies

I certainly hope so. I hope to repent continually and endure to the end.

3. by grace alone

I totally believe salvation and exaltation are completely by grace. All LDS do.

However, because God set up The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we know the full story. We know the truth. God Himself has instructed the Latter-day prophets on what that truly means and very importantly how that grace will be given and who will qualify.

Here's something to think about.

Revelation 11 speaks of two prophets coming just before the second coming of Christ. They will be killed in the streets of Jerusalem.

Now, the Catholic church doesn't have prophets. The protestants don't have prophets. Non-denominational churches don't have prophets.

So, these two prophets will not be from these three groups. If you know this a head of time...why in the world would align yourself with them?

[Stourme]

2 Corinthians 11:15
15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

What ever "Bible" you're quoting from, you might want to check it...there seems to be some changes made to it.

For there to be false angels there has to be true ones.

For there to be false apostles there have to be true ones.

Satan doesn't have a body he's a spirit. That's the first clue.

[colorcountry]

2 Cor 11:15 15 Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works.

Yeppers, that's why Joseph Smith met an untimely death at the hands of a mob and why it is rumored the Brig Young was poisoned. I guess God DID have the final word....LOL

[reaganaut]

So you reject ALL of these doctrines?

Nicean Creed:

I believe in one God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds; God of God, Light of Light, very God of very God; begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father, by whom all things were made.

Who, for us men for our salvation, came down from heaven, and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit of the virgin Mary, and was made man; and was crucified also for us under Pontius Pilate; He suffered and was buried; and the third day He rose again, according to the Scriptures; and ascended into heaven, and sits on the right hand of the Father; and He shall come again, with glory, to judge the quick and the dead; whose kingdom shall have no end.

And I believe in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of Life; who proceeds from the Father and the Son; who with the Father and the Son together is worshipped and glorified; who spoke by the prophets.

And I believe one holy catholic and apostolic Church. I acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; and I look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen.

The LDS claim to believe in grace, yet twist the doctrine so it does not resemble grace, but slavery.
Rev. 11 does not say it will be LDS prophets either. And the LDS only have one prophet at a time, where is the other one?

Just because someone SAYS they are a prophet does not mean they are one. There are also false prophets.

I align myself with Christ and Him alone.

[Godzilla]

Yes. And some became total enemies of the Church. Which increases your dilemma 1000 fold.

No, it causes your problems 1000 fold. Smith called the three of swearing, lying, cheating, swindling, and drinking. They in turn accused Smith of lying and licentiousness. Indeed, these are the witnesses, now breaking down into a he said - she said arguement.

"Such characters as McLellin, John Whitmer, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery, and Martin Harris are too mean to mention; and we had liked to have forgotten them." - History of the Church, Vol. 3, p. 232

And of course, much closer to the events and a prophet Young said "Some of the witnesses of the Book of Mormon, who handled the plates and conversed with the angels of God, were afterwards left to doubt and disbelieve that they had ever seen an angel." (JOD 7:164 1859).

Of such reputation these same 3 (along with the 8) gave countradictory testimonies, witnesses and in some cases revelations for other mormon groups that left smith/young. So with that and their own statements that they saw them "spiritually" rather than physically - LOL, Judge Judy would have a great time crossexamining them. They are not the spotless witnesses - their history shows that ANY word of testimony they spoke is suspect.

These men saw the angel and the plates. And if an angel, sent from God, has information that I need, then I want to hear it. I certainly wouldn't want to be found fighting against that angel. That would be scary.

Complete their testimony Stormy - through the eyes of faith. Why did they go into the woods Stormy? Smith already had the plates in his possession and had started translation - according to mormon history. AFA the angel goes

2 Cor 11:13 For such [are] false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
14. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.

[Godzilla]

3. by grace alone

I totally believe salvation and exaltation are completely by grace. All LDS do.
However, because God set up The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, we know the full story. We know the truth. God Himself has instructed the Latter-day prophets on what that truly means and very importantly how that grace will be given and who will qualify.

Ah, truth in advertizing now stormy. First it is not by grace alone, that is only available after all we can do.” (2 Nephi 25:23) You are bound up trying to pay off a debt by complying with the “laws and ordinances” of the gospel. Have you done “all you can do” to pay your sin-debt to Jesus? Are there any commandments you have failed to obey?
“For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.”—James 2:10

Do you repeat sinning stormy? “By this ye may know if a man repenteth of his sins —behold, he will confess them and forsake them.” —Doctrine and Covenants, Section 58:43
“And now, verily I say unto you, I, the Lord, will not lay any sin to your charge; go your ways and sin no more; but unto that soul who sinneth shall the former sins return, saith the Lord your God.” —Doctrine and Covenants, Section 82:7

How well are you at paying off your debt? “Yea, come unto Christ, and be perfected in him, and deny yourselves of all ungodliness; and if ye shall deny yourselves of all ungodliness, and love God with all your might, mind and strength, then is his grace sufficient for you, that by his grace ye may be perfect in Christ.…” —Moroni 10:32

Pesistant repeat sinning shows that you have not denied yourself of all ungodliness
“Discontinuance of the sin must be permanent....the former transgressor must have reached a ‘point of no return’ to sin wherein there is not merely a renunciation but also a deep abhorrence of the sin — where the sin becomes most distasteful to him and where the desire or urge to sin is cleared out of his life.” — The Miracle of Forgiveness, pp. 176, 354-355

What does the Jesus of mormonism tell you in your present state stormy? “And I say unto you again that he cannot save them in their sins; for I cannot deny his word, and he hath said that no unclean thing can inherit the kingdom of heaven.…Therefore, ye cannot be saved in your sins.” —Alma 11:37

Your wages of works will never repay Christ for the Bible says “For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.” — Romans 6:23

“For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any many should boast.”—Ephesians 2:8-9

“And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.” —Romans 11:6

Are you seeing the concept here Storm? Your salvation is not on grace alone, but upon ordinances and laws, which the bible clearly says above are completely inadequate to save. Your own scriptures show that it is impossible to attain, yet your Jesus will not save you in your sins, yet mine will -

“By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.…For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.” —Hebrews 10:10, 14

“…ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.” —Colossians 3:3

[greyfoxx39]

Crickets....

(Chirp...chirp....)

[greyfoxx39]

MARTIN HARRIS is the next personage of note in the Golden Bible speculation. He is one of the three witnesses to the truth of the book, having been shown the plates through the agency of an Angel, instead of the Prophet Joseph, who always had them in possession. Before his acquaintance with the Smith family, he was considered an honest, industrious citizen, by his neighbors. His residence was in the town of Palmyra, where he had accumulated a handsome property. He was naturally of a very visionary turn of mind on the subject of religion, holding one sentiment but a short time.   He engaged in the new Bible business with a view of making a handsome sum of money from the sale of the books, as he was frequently heard to say. The whole expense of publishing an edition of 5000 copies, which was borne by Martin, to secure the payment of which, he mortgaged his farm for $3000. Having failed in his anticipations about the sale of the books, (the retail price of which they said was fixed by an Angel at $1.75, but afterwards reduced to $1.25, and from that down to any price they could obtain) he adopted Smith as his Prophet, Priest and King. Since that time, the frequent demands upon Martin's purse have reduced it to a very low state. He seems to have been the soul and body of the whole imposition, and now carries the most incontestible proofs of a religious maniac. He frequently declares that he has conversed with Jesus Christ, Angels and the Devil. Christ he says is the handsomest man he ever saw; and the Devil looks very much like a jack-ass, with very short, smooth hair, similar to that of a mouse. He says he wrote a considerable part of the book, as Smith dictated, and at one time the presence of the Lord was so great, that a screen was hung up between him and the Prophet; at other times the Prophet would sit in a different room, or up stairs, while the Lord was communicating to him the contents of the plates. He does not pretend that he ever saw the wonderful plates but once, although he and Smith were engaged for months in deciphering their contents. He has left his wife to follow the fortunes of Smith. He has frequent fits of phrophecying, although they are not held in very high repute among his brethren. A specimen of his prophetic powers we subjoin. They were written for the special information of a friend of his who placed them upon the wall of his office, and are in these words: 

Within four years from September 1832, there will not be one wicked person left in the United States; that the righteous will be gathered to Zion, (Missouri) and that there will be no President over these United States after that time.

MARTIN HARRIS. I do hereby assert and declare that in four years from the date hereof, every sectarian and religious denomination in the United States, shall be broken down, and every Christian shall be gathered unto the Mormonites, and the rest of the human race shall perish. If these things do not take place, I will hereby consent to have my hand separated from my body.   MARTIN HARRIS.

Martin is an exceedingly fast talker. He frequently gathers a crowd around him in bar-rooms and in the streets. -- Here he appears to be in his element, answering and explaining all manner of dark and abstruse theological questions, from Genesis to Revelations; declaring that every thing has been revealed to him by the "power of God." During these flights of fancy, he frequently prophecies the coming of Christ, the destruction of the world, and the damnation of certain individuals. At one time he declared that Christ would be on earth within fifteen years, and all who did not believe in the book of Mormon would be destroyed.

He is the source of much trouble and perplexity to the honest portion of his brethren, and would undoubtedly long since have been cast off by Smith, were it not for his money, and the fact that he is one of the main pillars of the Mormon fabric. Martin is generally believed, by intelligent people, to be laboring under a partial derangement; and that any respectable jury would receive his testimony, in any case, of ever so trifling a nature, we do not believe; yet, the subjects of the delusion think him a competent witness to establish miracles of the most unreasonable kind. But we leave him for the present.

OLIVER COWDERY comes next in the catalogue. He was also a chief scribe to the prophet, while transcribing, after Martin had lost 116 pages of the precious document, by interference of the Devil. An Angel also has shown him the plates, from which the book of Mormon proceeded, as he says. He is a blacksmith by trade, and sustained a fair reputation until his intimacy commenced with the money-diggers. He was one of the many in the world who always find time to study out ways and means to live without work. He accordingly quit the blacksmithing business, and is now the editor of a small monthly publication issued under the direction of the prophet, and principally filled with accounts of the spread of Mormonism, their persecutions, and the fabled visions and commands of Smith.

DAVID WHITMAR is the third special witness who signed the certificate with Harris and Cowdery, testifying to having seen plates. He is one of five of the same name and family who have been used as witnesses to establish the imposition, and who are now head men and leaders in the Mormonite camp. They were noted in their neighborhood for credulity and a general belief in witches, and perhaps were fit subjects for the juggling arts of Smith. David relates that he was led by Smith into an open field, on his father;s farm, where they found the Book of plates lying upon the ground. Smith took it up and requested him to examine it, which he did for the space of half an hour or more, when he returned it to Smith, who placed it in its former position, alledging that it was in the custody of an Angel. He discribes the plates as being about eight inches square, the leaves being metal of a whitish yellow color, and of the thickness of tin plates.  The back was secured with three small rings of the same metal, passing through each leaf in succession; that the leaves were divided equidistant between the back and the edge, by cutting the plates in two parts, and again united with solder, so that the front might be opened, while the back part remained stationary and immovable, and was consequently a sealed book, which would not be revealed for ages to come, and which Smith himself was not permitted to understand. On opening that part of the book which was not secured by seals, he discovered inscribed on the aforesaid plates, divers and wonderful characters, some large and some small, but beyond the wisdom of man to understand without supernatural aid; this account is sometimes partly contradicted by Harris.

Three witnesses Mormonism Unvailed E. D. Howe

[CommerceComet]

And if an angel, sent from God, has information that I need, then I want to hear it. I certainly wouldn't want to be found fighting against that angel. That would be scary.

Paul wasn't afraid to take on angels who present a false gospel:

6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7 which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9 As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

The scary part is believing a "gospel" presented by a personage masquerading as an "angel of light."

[CommerceComet]

I forgot to post the citation of verses that I quoted: Galatians 1:6-9. Sorry.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

ƃuıɥɔʇɐʍ puɐ ƃuılıǝɔ ǝɥʇ uo ƃuıpıɥ ɹǝʞɹɐɯǝɔɐld ʎʇılıqısıʌuı ɟo ʞɐolɔ ɐɾuıu

~~~> x

[Stourme]

And the LDS only have one prophet at a time, where is the other one?

Restornu, does this sound like something that anyone who has ever been an active Latter-day Saint would say?

reaganaut....there are 15 prophets in the LDS Church. Not just one. And quite often, they are sent out in pairs.

[Stourme]

Yeppers, that's why Joseph Smith met an untimely death at the hands of a mob

You mean like Jesus did?

You mean like most of the original apostles did?

I think Joseph is in pretty good company.

[aMorePerfectUnion]

... don’t remember Jesus Locked & Loaded, armed by his posse and returning fire. In fact, I distinctly remember reading he told Peter to put up his sword and went peacefully.

... don’t remember Stephen Locked & Loaded, going down in a hail of gun fire he was returning. I am getting older now and my memory isn’t quite what it used to be.

... don’t remember any BIBLICAL Martyr Locked & Loaded.

... don’t remember any jailed for being a horn-dog pursuing other men’s wives, or for preventing papers from being published, but as I say, I am getting older.

Could you point out those passages so that I can refresh my memory? Thank you.

ampu

[reaganaut]

reaganaut....there are 15 prophets in the LDS Church. Not just one. And quite often, they are sent out in pairs.

---

Yeah, sure. Which is why you sing “we thank the O God for a PROPHET” (singular), it is also why they only ever refer to the President as “the prophet” and the other 14 as “Apostles”.

Even if they do go out in pairs 15 > 2, not equal to it. Rev. 11 only speaks of 2.

BTW, Your attempt at discrediting me by questioning my former LDS membership is pathetic.