Posted on 02/14/2009 9:43:20 AM PST by restornu
"God Became Man So That Man Might Become A God." St. Athanasius
... when the intellect has been perfected, it unites wholly with God and is illumined by divine light, and the most hidden mysteries are revealed to it. Then it truly learns where wisdom and power lie... While it is still fighting against the passions it cannot as yet enjoy these things... But once the battle is over and it is found worthy of spiritual gifts, then it becomes wholly luminous, powerfully energized by grace and rooted in the contemplation of spiritual realities. A person in whom this happens is not attached to the things of this world but has passed from death to life." St. Thalassios, "On Love, Self-control and Life in accordance with the Intellect" Philokalia (Vol. 2)", p. 355)
'Can a man take fire into his bosom, and his clothes not be burned?' (Prov. 6:27) says the wise Solomon. And I say: can he, who has in his heart the Divine fire of the Holy Spirit burning naked, not be set on fire, not shine and glitter and not take on the radiance of the Deity in the degree of his purification and penetration by fire? For penetration by fire follows upon purification of the heart, and again purification of the heart follows upon penetration by fire, that is, inasmuch as the heart is purified, so it receives Divine grace, and again inasmuch as it receives grace, so it is purified. When this is completed (that is, purification of heart and acquisition of grace have attained their fullness and perfection), through grace a man becomes wholly a god." St. Simeon the New Theologian (Practical and Theological Precepts no. 94, Writings from the Philokalia on Prayer of the Heart; Faber and Faber pgs. 118-199)
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Yep, and after much study, the spam presented here, to say they are frauds, is too weak to stand up to a unbius study.
Back in the 70’s I started out to prove that this Church was not true.
It could not be done, but I keep looking to see if ya’ll can find something new to present.
Back in the 70’s I started out to prove that this Church was not true.
It could not be done,
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Got a LINK to your published research ????
Get into the box, Resty...
Where ya wanna go ???
that is P-Marlowe trip!
if you read it in context he was saying that he took all of his orders from above, not himself. you guys are mixed up!
Back in the 60's I was engaged in trying to prove to some of my non-Mormon friends the truth of Mormonism. It was then I discovered all the evidence that it is a total fraud.
Now isnt that amazing...
You managed to complete your assignment annd turn it in...
Someone else had a dog that liked to eat his homework...
How about 2 Peter 1, especially verse 4?
We all agree St. Athanasius’ language is overly emphatic. Also, in context it is very clear that the partaking, or as he puts it, apprehension, of Divine nature does not make man substantially God.
Stern, D. H. (1996, c1992). Jewish New Testament Commentary : A companion volume to the Jewish New Testament (electronic ed.) (2 Pe 1:1). Clarksville: Jewish New Testament Publications. “The Messiah himself died for sins, once and for all, a righteous person on behalf of unrighteous people, so that he might bring you to God” (1 Ke 3:18; see also 1 Ke 2:21–24, Ro 8:3, MJ 4:15).
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
Yes, one must fairly ask what is occuring here. Recently mormon apologists have taken the Eastern Orthodox doctrine of deification, derived from the Greek term theosis and started calling it their own. In the course of doing this, there are two logical linguistic fallacies the mormon writers have committed concerning their use of Eastern Orthodox and early church citations. First, they commit the fallacy of equivocation, pretending that the early Church fathers meant the same thing the Mormons do when they use similar terms. Second, they commit the fallacy of vicious abstraction, that is, the removal of a statement from its context and the changing of its argument.
The Mormon doctrine of man reaching godhood is outlined by the Mormon apostle John A. Widtsoe, in his work A Rational Theology. He explicitly states, "In short, man is a god in embryo. He comes of a race of gods, and as his eternal growth continues, he will approach more nearly the position which to us is Godhood, and is everlasting in its power over the elements of the universe." He also said, "God and Man are of the same race . . . man is of the order of Gods. . . . " Therefore, mormonism builds upon its polytheistic pantheon of gods for the basis of its interpretation.
Is this what Orthodox Christians and others mean by the term theosis? To evaluate this one must become familiar with the Christian definition of theosis and then to evaluate if what the early church fathers was that of mormonism or current doctrines of theosis.
Many westerners, particularly Protestants are not familiar with the above explainations of theosis. What we would equate this to is our ultimate sanctification. However, a general search of sources within the Eastern Church on this doctrine uniformly was contrary to what mormon apologists would have you believe on this subject.
Now, a laundry listing of early church leaders were cited – Irenaeus; Clement of Alexandria; Justin Martyr; Hippolytus; Athanasius; and Jerome. When these writers referred to theosis, were they using the mormon definition or orthodox Christian doctrine. Here mormonism commits both of the fallacies mentioned earlier.
First and foremost, did these writers believe in the mormon concept of polytheism? The answer is a resounding NO - Over and over again the writings of these early church fathers emphasize that there is but one true eternal God and he imparts communicable attributes only, like immortality, love, and holiness to the redeemed. Never is God an exalted man in any writing of early Church fathers. Never does God impart his incommunicable, unique attributes of eternity, omniscience, omnipresence, or omnipotence to the resurrected believer. Always taught a Trinitarian view of God. What I find humorous is that mormons uses these early church fathers to champion such a doctrine, while in some other discourses, these same individuals are demonized by mormon apologists for their strong defense of the Trinity. "It seems clear that support for the Mormon doctrines of a corporeal and limited God, eternal progress, and deification cannot be found in Eastern Orthodoxy, the early church fathers, or the twentieth-century writings of C. S. Lewis" (Richard and Joan Ostling, Mormon America, pp.313).
Now, true to form, the actual citations by these church fathers are hidden within secondary documentation so that follow-on research is limited. One example will suffice here: the FAIR apologist via Sevenbak quotes Irenaeus -
But of what gods [does he speak]? [Of those] to whom He says, "I have said, Ye are gods, and all sons of the Most High." To those, no doubt, who have received the grace of the "adoption, by which we cry, Abba Father."
This can be found (Against Heresies, Book 3 Ch 6 vs 1)
What else is written within the immediate context of this passage? Three verses later Irenaeus writes:
4. Wherefore I do also call upon you, Lord God of Abraham, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob and Israel, who is the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the God who, through the abundance of Your mercy, hast had a favour towards us, that we should know You, who hast made heaven and earth, who rule over all, who is the only and the true God, above whom there is none other God; grant, by our Lord Jesus Christ, the governing power of the Holy Spirit; give to every reader of this book to know You, that You are God alone, to be strengthened in You, and to avoid every heretical, and godless, and impious doctrine. (Against Heresies, Book 3 Ch 6 vs 4)
It becomes very evident that Irenaeus is not polytheistic in the least, but very strongly monotheistic. Therefore, the mormon interpretations of theosis from Irenaeus’ quotes are clearly ripped out of their proper context and meaning given by the writer by the mormon apologist. If there is only One True God then anything that man may become is not God. Irenaeus makes clear at the end of verse 4 above that doctrines such as mormonism puts forth are heretical, and godless, and impious doctrine He also shut the door later in the same book
"Nevertheless, what cannot be said of anyone else who ever lived, that he is himself in his own right God and Lord . . . may be seen by all who have attained to even a small portion of the truth" (Against Heresies, 3:19:1).
Shotgunned statements quote mined from the ANF writers might play well to the mormon sheeple, but when evaluated within the context of the early church writers, it becomes readily apparent the definitions and use of the terms theosis and deification by mormons are not what the writers intended. To further claim that the early church fathers did on the basis of quote mining and redefinition of terms is flat out dishonesty.
Please tell me what you know about Brigham Young and the handcart companies...
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It is better to pull 400 lbs then to carry it.
You seem to have something you want to bring up.
Well, I didn't cite Genesis 1, which adds in verse 2:
Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.
So, I'd say we could safely say that the divine Holy Spirit was also present.
Beyond that, we know from early Genesis, that Satan had already fallen as an angel either before Adam's creation -- or shortly thereafter. So some people assume the angels were created prior to Adam. (I'm not sure of an exact Bible reference that would confirm that)
So, God, Jesus and nothing pre-Beginning time-wise? (No)
We know it 'twas at least God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit -- and likely or possibly created angels. (And boy, did Joseph Smith and other LDS leaders screw up angelic theology or what? In Mormon theology, some angels are gods; some are men; and some despite their perfection never have any "eternal progression"...why is that?)
But we know from Col. 1:16 that Jesus created all angels -- that they weren't there from eternity past.
Please relate what you believe the doctrine of the Trinity adds to your understanding of what happened before “In the beginning”
So?
bttt
(1) God is a complete social unity in Himself (He doesn't "need" anybody else relationally to be...unlike the Mormon god, He isn't dependent upon anyone socially)
(2) God has complete authority in Himself [He doesn't "need" anybody else to receive approval -- say from a grand council poobah of gods -- to operate...He doesn't need another god or grand-god or great grand-god to give him the Melchizedek priesthood, or any other authority...unlike the Mormon god, the buck stops with Him!...Jesus is the only "right hand man" (man-God) of the Father...Whereas in Joseph Smith's topsy-turvy world, Smith claimed that God was Smith's "right-hand man"! If you take Smith at his word, and I assume LDS do, the Mormon god was actually dependent upon Joseph Smith! How ludricous!]
(3) God is "omni"-everything except things like evil, etc. Why is this relevant to the Trinity? Because "knowing" -- as in omniscience -- isn't just knowin' all the facts & figures & what is & what was & what's to come. Knowing also = Relationally knowing. And omniscience includes doing that perfectly. The Mormon god was once an imperfect man who was once an imperfect spirit who was once an imperfect intelligence. He had to progress as part of "eternal progression." He had to earn his own "salvation." The Trinity trumps a bare monotheistic god who knew nobody in the pre-beginning and nobody knew Him. And a self-existent Trinity trumps the Mormon god who was apparently flunking manhood at some point in his life before he finally was "saved."
(4) The Trinity is partriarchal. The Father is recognized as the Source of beings (angels, people). This keeps the theological picture of Creator vs. creature crisply in focus, whereas it's muddied & blurred in Mormonism. The Mormon god is only a mere creature. (And don't say, "Well, Jesus was a mere 'creature' too" -- 'cause there's a huge difference between God-becoming-man vs. the Mormon man-become-god!)
(5) Another important "omni" is omnipresence. The Trinity is able to give high treatment to this with, for example, the Holy Spirit. He is everywhere. He is not limited by a localized body. LDS, like some Christian denominations, have a retarded understanding of who the Spirit is -- and I don't mean that in a teen putdown sort of way ("that's retarded"). I mean that in an undeveloped sense. Mormons tend to treat "omnipresence" as only His influence being everywhere.
(6) The Trinity allows us to give the highest recognition to Jesus Christ. I mean, just compare the "pre-Beginning" narratives of Jesus Christ of Nazareth vs. the Mormon jesus. The Jesus of the Bible was equal with God (Phil. 2:6) and shared the Father's glory (John 17:5) Compare that to the beginnings of the Mormon jesus -- who was supposedly on the same pre-existent spirit-birth level as Lucifer! So the Mormon Jesus was the "elder brother" of Satan??? And his "jumpstart" in life was on an equal plain as Satan???
Fred -- and all other Mormons -- I beg you...before the true Jesus comes: In the Name of this True Jesus Christ...
...leave the Mormon jesus behind. Embrace Jesus of Nazareth.
...leave the undeveloped Holy Ghost and receive the full Holy Spirit...
...leave the creature-father figure god of Mormonism, and embrace the Father of all fathers!
"Father of fathers, I ask you to impart your Patriarchal blessing upon all who open up themselves to you with a receptive spirit. Be our Father. Jesus of Nazareth, I hereby worship You as the One who shared equality with the Father before the world was -- One who shared His glory -- and I worship you as the Glorious One and One who I am to glorify from here on. I do not glorify myself by playing a 'savior' role in proxy savior rituals in man-made temples any longer. I do not glorify myself by trying to continue to become a god I know I will never attain to. I glorify only You! And my temple is no longer a man-made one...My temple is my body -- and Your body -- the universal Body of Christ, created only with Your Hands! And I invite Your Spirit to fill me as Your temple. In the Name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, I disinvite the less-than-god images I've had of you -- those idols -- I receive You fully as you describe Yourself in Your Word, the Bible."
But that did not happen before the 'In the beginning' God created the heavens and the earth. No one can even begin to date when the Genesis of the Heavenly Father 'WAS'. Christ and the Holy Spirit would have been even before Lucifer was created.
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