Is the Bible God's Word? (Do you believe the Bible is the only word of God?)

http://www.jamaat.net/bible/Bible1-3.html ^ | Ahmed Deedat

[Domandred]

It would be one thing if Smith or Russell fell short on one prediction out of dozens or hundreds made (although by biblical standards, only 100% accuracy is acceptable...)

Not familiar with this Russel guy so whatever.

Interesting that you would include Jonah in the list of Prophets, then say that only 100% accuracy is acceptable. Jonah went to Nineveh and said "Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown". No caviets, no outs. Just that it would happen. Nineveh repented and God saved the city, nullifying Jonah's prophecy. Jonah wasn't happy.

Ezekiel prophesied that Tyre would be plundered by the Babylonians. Part of the prophecy also said Tyre would never be rebuilt and exist no more. The Babylonians tried, failed, and the plundering Babylonian plundering didn't happen. Tyre Again a prophet that by your standards must have 100% accuracy.

And then there is Jesus Himself saying "This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled" that didn't happen.

100% accuracy to be a true prophet? Really?

but they each batted ZERO on all prophecies of consequence or meaning.

Zero accuracy for Joseph Smith? Sure about that? I'll admit that I don't have an exact count of how many prophecies Smith made in order to calculate his accuracy, but just with the LDS migration to the Rockies, LDS flourishing in the Rockies, the church reaching to all nations and tongues, I would say without any doubt that Joseph Smith was definitely not batting zero.

[AmericanArchConservative]

This entire passage means nothing. It is of dubious authorship and is a fictional chronicle of a people who based upon the best archaeological evidence we have available at this time (and of late, geneaological evidence as well!) NEVER existed - outside the fertile mind of Joseph “False Prophet/Bigamist/Spirit Medium” Smith.

All you who are mormons ought to really know how HARD the Jewish people laugh at you!! From the culturally utterly inaccurate things in the b.o.m. concerning an allegedly Jewish-descended ‘race’ of people (your non-existent “Lamanites”, among others...) to the names of people in the b.o.m. - Nephi, Ether, and worse...

Jewish names all mean something, that is to say they have a definition such as “Dov” meaning ‘bear’, or “Isaac” meaning laughter, “Mara” meaning ‘bitter’, “Sarai” meaning ‘princess’, and “Sarah” meaning ‘queen’

Ether has no meaning - and no amount of research or protests from beyond the grave by ol’ Joe are going to effect a retroactive change in the linguistics of Hebrew.

Moreover, the b.o.m. is fraught with stilted grammar - even today, after several major and meaningful revisions - which more indicates the grammar of a poorly educated (in fact nearly illiterate in Smith’s case...) pioneer-person living in the early US than it does the communicated prophetic message of a Living, unchanging, immutable G_d.

There were many in ancient Israel who were lacking in education...who were illiterate - but the grammar and sentence syntax of the books of the Old and New Testaments were clear, and always agreed in subject, gender and kind. They were, in short, internally correct.

Subsequent translations from Jerome’s Vulgate, the Geneva Bible, the King James translation, whether from the masoretic texts, or other ancient source material - are also painstakingly grammatically accurate. The comparisons to the Dead Sea Scrolls of Qumran have only bolstered the accuracy of the other texts.

Throwing in the “as far as it is correctly translated” albatross phrase in an effort to discredit or throw doubts upon the veracity of the bible alone - suggesting it NEEDS somehow, a b.o.m. to verify, or augment any points - is simply heinous, intellectually dishonest, and exposes one to the wrath of G_d, for the simple fact that it is quite conceivable causing a “little one” in the faith to stumble.

Far greater efforts were employed upon the translations of the books and letters canonized at Nicea and assuring the integrity of the ‘textus receptus’ -than have yet been seen for the b.o.m., D & C, or ‘Pearl of great Price’.

Perhaps it is the outlandish arrogance of Joseph Smith (a resident of Hell, not a prophet...) who, in either D. & C. or “Pearl” - giving vent to his own voice, declared, “a Bible, a Bible! The Fool declares ‘I have a Bible...” basically criticizing any person who stakes their salvation and understanding of G_d the Father and Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit upon the Bible alone.

Smith is taking to task those who have the temerity to question his authority and that of his work of fiction, and in elevating the b.o.m., D & C, and Pearls above the Bible, and he dooms himself and many followers in so doing.

On the one hand, it is quite possible - make that probable - with 100% certainty to find ALL of the Gospel principles, and ALL the information which is necessary for the spiritual salvation of any human beings who choose to avail themselves of the promises of Christ - in the Bible alone!

The book of Moron is unnecessary for that, ‘Doctrines and Covenants’ is superfluous (if, at times possessed of some good or not bad ideas which are in line with common sense...), as is ‘Pearl’.

Although there are unquestionably things contained in both Old and New Testaments which are neither aimed at every reader, nor necessary for salvation, those things still have greater inherent value because in the case of the Old testament, they contain the historical records of G_d’s dealings with His chosen people, the Israelites...

And in the case of the New Testament, the interactions of the newly converted Gentile heirs to the promise of G_d - those who are grafted onto the tree of life if you will - also have their foibles and flaws recorded - or at least mentioned by the Apostles and disciples...and the firsthand accounts of Christ’s crucifixion (our point of salvation - not Gethsemane) on the cross, and his subsequent resurrection and ascension into heaven...

Those things are necessary, and provide teachable moments which deserve the benediction of being canonized - by virtue of their illustrating things which are true and immutable about humans and their nature and about the one eternal G_d and His nature.

The similar ensamples in the b.o.m. and other books thereto, are only valuable insofar as they agree with the original Bible, and to that end, their value is largely plagiarized and often diluted.

Overall, there are significant disagreements between some passages in the b.o.m text, and the Old/New Testaments - and where such variances are evident - I find every reason to TRUST in the Bible - few, if any reasons, whatsoever to place ANY trust in a bigamist,a convicted liar, and self-styled prophet who never made an accurate prophecy of consequence, nor proved he could “interpret” ANY ancient language truthfully or correctly(so demonstrated in a court of law).

I have far more refutations than just these...they are just examples off the top of my head. All of the “seventy”, nor a march of “ordained” ‘Melchizedek priests’ have neither the knowledge, nor the ability to prove otherwise.

I have, in the last 15 - 20 years, out-debated and successfully converted away, four LDS “missionaries” who embarked upon my doorstep with their message. One of them even brought the Bishop along for a few visits, and they left rather shell-shocked, having fielded many unanswerable questions from me.

Two of them (not partners) abandoned their mission before they were halfway along - one became a member of a charismatic community church, the other joined the Nazarene church. I do not always have time for them, some are far more irritating and irrational than others, but when I can I welcome them. You could say, I have them for lunch...LOL!!

I am quite certain if the LDS church knew of me more closely, and my doings, they would never let another missionary knock on my door - but they’re in over their heads now - I married one of their daughters, and I will not stop until I have gently and lovingly deconstructed the whole of it for her, mother-in law, and three devout (of four) brothers in law! LOL! I may not get them all, but the odds are in my favor for at least 3 of 5...

I continue my guerilla spiritual warfare to save mormons from themselves, from Joseph Smith’s long and deceptive reach, and from hell, and I do so with good cheer and a warm, ready laugh.

A.A.C.

[Rameumptom]

An interesting read as well is the Book of Enoch which is quoted in the Book of Jude in the Bible as a prophetic source.

Wiki - Book of Enoch

Enoch is considered as Scripture in the Epistle of Barnabas (16:4)[7] and by many of the early Church Fathers as Athenagoras[8], Clement of Alexandria[9], Irenaeus[10] and Tertullian[11] who wrote c. 200 that the Book of Enoch had been rejected by the Jews because it contained prophecies pertaining to Christ.[12]

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***I haven’t read the other books, but may find them and read them. ***

Every Christian should read those books. You can get them at any book store. they were in the origional Geneva and KJV bibles.

Once you read those books you will see how irrelevant they really are even though many in the early church believed them to be true.

[Godzilla]

Zero accuracy for Joseph Smith? Sure about that? I'll admit that I don't have an exact count of how many prophecies Smith made in order to calculate his accuracy, but just with the LDS migration to the Rockies, LDS flourishing in the Rockies, the church reaching to all nations and tongues, I would say without any doubt that Joseph Smith was definitely not batting zero.

The standard is pretty strict - any failed prophecy makes him a false prophet by biblical standard

Deuteronomy 18:20-22.
"But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die. And if thou say in thine heart, How shall we know the word which the LORD hath not spoken? When a prophet speaketh in the name of the LORD, if the thing follow not, nor come to pass, that [is] the thing which the LORD hath not spoken, [but] the prophet hath spoken it presumptuously: thou shalt not be afraid of him."

[aMorePerfectUnion]

>>>As I said before, modern religionists ignore major issues. You defend the indefensible. I’m sure you’ve heard of the contention with infant baptism?

>>>It used to be capitol offense, as in they burned you at the stake, for not accepting the doctrine of infant baptism.

“modern religionists” - clearly, on this thread, the only
“modern relitionists” we are discussing are mormonites.

I have no problem with someone wanting to baptize an infant
or not. So I am not defending it either way.

This is a distraction from the simple statement that Elsie
made and I reinforced, that thought mormonites claim to
be the Restored Church, So do the FLDS. Heck, they have
a “living prophet” that is just as much not a prophet as
the LDS “living prophet”. Add to that another 200
mormonite groups that are each the only true way...

This is the way with all cults. Power structure that must
be obeyed, ladder of ascension to climb, us vs. them
total mentality, corner on all truth, arcane rituals,
extra biblical revelation... and on and on. Mormonism is,
in my opinion, the single best FAKE Satan has ever come
up with.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***I especially enjoy the “Buck of Esther.” Right about now I’d enjoy all the bucks I could get (or hold onto.)***

Hebrew version witha fiesty Esther
Or..
Greek version with a wimpy faint hearted Esther?

[aMorePerfectUnion]

Rameumptom

Jude’s statement is similar to a passage in the apocryphal Book of Enoch (1:9) - but he does not directly quote from Enoch.

It leaves open the possibility that Jude received the specified information that forms the passage directly from God, who inspired the book of Jude.

If he did quote the book of Enoch, he was affirming the truth of that prophecy and not endorsing the book completely.

Paul did the same thing when he spoke on Mars Hill and
quoted one of their contemporary poets.

Mormonites often try to use this to imply there are all kinds
of scripture not in the canon of Bible - and by doing so, to open
the door for the Book of Mormonites to be considered
scripture.

Wrong on both counts. And it isn’t.

[AmericanArchConservative]

I believe in the Father, His only Begotten Son, and the Holy Spirit - the Trinity, three in one, One in three.

For my salvation, only the Grace and mercy imparted to me by his life, his dying on the Cross and His Resurrection are necessary to accept.

To breathe life into my faith, showing that it is not dead, works will not gain me grace nor entry into heaven, but they evidence flower and fruit of my faith, and increase my reward in heaven.

These things I believe in my heart and confess with my mouth - that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the eternal Glory of G_d the Father.

I attend church very regularly, fellowshipping with brother and sister believers, but really no earthly church can contain the magnitude or the magnificence of the greater love of Christ, nor of the Father who sent him, nor the Spirit which overshadowed Mary, and who baptized him in the form of a dove from heaven.

A.A.C.

[Domandred]

any failed prophecy makes him a false prophet by biblical standard

You either didn't read or ignored the post.

Jonah 3:4 Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown - Failed

Ezekiel 26, 27, 28: Tyre will be plundered, pillaged, destroyed by the Babylonians under Nebuchadnezzar. Tyre will be made a desolate city. Tyre will be built no more. Tyre will exist no more, forever. - Failed

Jesus (Matt 24:34): This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled - Failed

any failed prophecy makes him a false prophet by biblical standard

So Jonah, Ezekiel, and Jesus Christ Himself are false prophets?

[Tennessee Nana]

I have no problem with someone wanting to baptize an infant
or not. So I am not defending it either way.
____________________________________________

I object to the mormons wanting to baptise my dead Christian grandmother into their Anti-Christian cult...

[daniel1212]

This has been dealt with before on FR, and refuted, and I will not go one in another thread, suffice to say that Mormonism and R. Catholicism have critical similarities, which are make them closer to each other than to evangelicals. Both autocratically presume to be the only One true church, in the formal sense, who exalt themselves above the Scriptures, and make another “revelation” equal to it By which they add doctrines that cannot be substantiated by the Scriptures. And by which they have formed theocracies which used the sword of men to fight there wars, in utter contrast to the mandate and means of the N.T. church.

While some attempt is made to substantiated their false doctrines from Scripture, their real authority relies upon their own declaration of their authority, in which they infallibly declare themselves to infallible in declaring certain doctrines, according to their criteria for infallibility, which they infallibly defined, which souls are required to submit to, though there exists no infallible complete list of infallibly defined doctrines. Thus according to their interpretation, only their interpretation can be right in any conflict. Such stands in contrast to relying on the only tangible source which explicitly declared to be infallible (2Tim. 3:16), and demonstrating from it that a doctrine is warranted, with other sources being secondary.

As for Rome’s extra books, let is first be said that the position of the authenticity of Bible as the infallible word of is not due to ecclesiastical decree, especially seeing as it took approx. 1400 years for an infallible definition of the canon to result, but by it’s manifest power and purity among those who trusted and obeyed it. The canon is essentially much a ratification of the “best seller list” of true men and women of God.

For substantiation as to why the extra book of Rome should not be considered wholly inspired, and why their was nver unamanity on them among early authorities, see
http://www.christiantruth.com/Apocryphapart1.html
http://www.christiancourier.com/articles/read/the_apocrypha_inspired_of_god, http://www.xenos.org/essays/canon.htm *

That is all.

[gost2]

I like the way you think ... and write. (but for the few typos)

[Tennessee Nana]

Jonah 3:4 Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown - Failed
_________________________________________

Arise, go to Nineveh, that great city, and cry against it; for their wickedness is come up before me. Jonah 1:2

And the word of the LORD came unto Jonah the second time, saying, Arise, go unto Nineveh, that great city, and preach unto it the preaching that I bid thee. Jonah 3:2, 3

Jonah went to Ninevah and did what God told him to do

And Jonah began to enter into the city a day’s journey, and he cried, and said, Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown. Jonah 3:4

The people repented...

So the people of Nineveh believed God, and proclaimed a fast, and put on sackcloth, from the greatest of them even to the least of them. Jonah 3:5

The king proclaimed...

But let man and beast be covered with sackcloth, and cry mightily unto God: yea, let them turn every one from his evil way, and from the violence that [is] in their hands. Who can tell if God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not? Jonah 3:8, 0

And God changed His mind...

And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that He had said that He would do unto them; and He did it not. Jonah 3:10

But at thge time, Jonah obeyed God and told the people what God had commanded him to say...

Jonah = True prophet of God

And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and also much cattle? Jonaqh 4:11

[Tennessee Nana]

Jesus (Matt 24:34): This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled - Failed
_____________________________________________

This generation has not passed yet...

This dispensation is right now...

We are living in it...

God is not a man, that He should lie, Nor a son of man, that He should repent; Has He said, and will He not do it? Or has He spoken, and will He not make it good? Numbers 23:19

[Godzilla]

Jonah 3:4 Yet forty days, and Nineveh shall be overthrown - Failed

Conditional prophecy answered by God Himself:

Jonah 3:9 Who can tell [if] God will turn and repent, and turn away from his fierce anger, that we perish not?
Jonah 3:10 And God saw their works, that they turned from their evil way; and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did [it] not.
Jonah 4:2 And he prayed unto the LORD, and said, I pray thee, O LORD, [was] not this my saying, when I was yet in my country? Therefore I fled before unto Tarshish: for I knew that thou [art] a gracious God, and merciful, slow to anger, and of great kindness, and repentest thee of the evil.
Jonah 4:11 And should not I spare Nineveh, that great city, wherein are more than sixscore thousand persons that cannot discern between their right hand and their left hand; and [also] much cattle?

Tyre will exist no more, forever. - Failed

Improper representation of Exekiel 26-28. 6 of 7 key points of the prophecy were fulfilled. You dispute the 7th, however, the present day Tyre is not built over the spot of the ancient Tyre. They can't find ruins of the town because Alexander scraped it to rock to build the causway to the island of Tyre proper.

Jesus (Matt 24:34): This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled - Failed

Context, context, context. What is being referred to in this verse????? Signs regarding the end times return - Mat 24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, [even] at the doors.

What things......

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

So Jonah, Ezekiel, and Jesus Christ Himself are false prophets?

Only if one ignores passages in context with the rest of the associated scriptures and history.

[HopeandGlory]

Do you believe the KJV of the Bible is the only word of God?

YES!!!

[mdmathis6]

The book of Esther is in my Bible...the King James!

[Stourme]

You said this:

They don’t disagree over the basic doctrines of the faith.

I gave you the perfect example of how you are 100% wrong.

So instead of admitting that you were wrong. You come back with a red herring as a distraction from your wrongness.

I have no problem with someone wanting to baptize an infant or not. So I am not defending it either way.

Another red herring. We don't care what you have a problem with. We're discussing : They don’t disagree over the basic doctrines of the faith

And this relates back to the subject of the thread.

statement that Elsie

You're quoting L.C. as a source?

Are you going to admit that, YES, modern religions disagree over the basic doctrines of the faith. Or are you going to find another dead horse to beat?

[Stourme]

YES!!!

Why?