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The Mother of God calls us to be 'Bearers of God'
Catholic Online ^ | 11/30/2008 | Deacon Keith A Fournier

Posted on 12/30/2008 8:43:49 PM PST by GonzoII

Men have crowded all her glory into a single phrase: The Mother of God. No one can say anything greater of her.(Martin Luther)

CHESAPEAKE, Va. (Catholic Online) - From antiquity, Mary has been called “Theotokos”, or “God-Bearer” (Mother of God). It is a relatively recent phenomenon among some Christians that this term has even become controversial. Yet since the Protestant reformation – it has. So, sadly, it is this title which prevents some Christians from experiencing Mary as the gift that she is meant to be for the whole church and for the world. The word in Greek is “Theotokos”.

The term was used as part of the popular piety of the early first millennium church. It is used throughout the Eastern Church's Liturgy, both Orthodox and Catholic. It lies at the heart of the Latin Rite's deep Marian piety and devotion. This title was a response to the early threats to 'orthodoxy' or the preservation of authentic Christian teaching. A pronouncement of an early Church Council, The Council of Ephesus in 431 A.D., insisted “… If anyone does not confess that God is truly Emmanuel, and that on this account the holy virgin is the “Theotokos” (for according to the flesh she gave birth to the word of God become flesh by birth) let him be anathema.” The Council of Ephesus, 431 AD,

(Excerpt) Read more at catholic.org ...


TOPICS: Catholic; History; Orthodox Christian; Theology
KEYWORDS: catholic; spirituallife; theotokos; virginmary
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To: LeonardFMason
I agree that houses of worship of any Christian denomination are called churches and don't have a problem with that.

There is also the sense of Church of apostolic origin that is local to an area, for example, the Coptic Church or the Armenian Church, as as we are known, the Latin Church.

I also agree that Jesus is present in some way everywhere and certainly with any community of believers, as Matthew 18:20 demonstrates.

However, the way Church uis used in the scripture is either the geographically local sense (the Church of Laodicea) or in the Catholic sense ("You are Peter and on this rock I will build my Church", Matthew 16:18). Here the reference is to the Catholic Church as a whole. Likewise, on Matthew 18:17 the reference to the local Church ("tell the Church") cannot be to a schismatic, separated church because were it so, it could not be the court of last instance.

The scripture makes it plain that Christ and His Apostles established one holy Catholic Church ruled by bishops who are in communion between themselves and lead by St. Peter:

Take heed to yourselves, and to the whole flock, wherein the Holy Ghost hath placed you bishops, to rule the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood. (Acts 20:28)

Is Christ divided?(1 Cor. 1:13)

31... Simon, Simon, behold Satan hath desired to have you [note plural], that he may sift you [plural] as wheat: 32 But I have prayed for thee [singular, i.e. Peter alone], that thy faith fail not: and thou [singular], being once converted, confirm thy brethren (Luke 22)

Now, this does not exclude the possibility of divisions that are to be overcome ("That they all may be one, as thou, Father, in me, and I in thee; that they also may be one in us; that the world may believe that thou hast sent me", John 17:21) by the apostolic college, and the division between the Catholic and the Orthodox Churches is such division. The schism with the communities of faith that resulted from the so-called Reformation is not capable of being bridged. From RESPONSES TO SOME QUESTIONS REGARDING CERTAIN ASPECTS OF THE DOCTRINE ON THE CHURCH:

FIFTH QUESTION

Why do the texts of the Council and those of the Magisterium since the Council not use the title of “Church” with regard to those Christian Communities born out of the Reformation of the sixteenth century?

RESPONSE

According to Catholic doctrine, these Communities do not enjoy apostolic succession in the sacrament of Orders, and are, therefore, deprived of a constitutive element of the Church. These ecclesial Communities which, specifically because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood, have not preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery [19] cannot, according to Catholic doctrine, be called “Churches” in the proper sense [20]. [...]

[19] Cf. Second Vatican Council, Decree Unitatis redintegratio, 22.3.

[20] Cf. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, Declaration Dominus Iesus, 17.2: AAS 92 [2000-II] 758.


81 posted on 12/31/2008 2:19:00 PM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
Is it possible for Protestants to actually learn what Calvin, Luther and Zwingli believed about the Blessed Virgin Mary and then explain why they’ve strayed so far from those beliefs?
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ok...My curiosity is piqued. Do you have any links?

It was my understanding that Calvin and Luther rejected praying to saints and Mary to ask for intercession with God. Am I correct that they preached we should pray directly to God in Jesus name, and they rejected praying the rosary?

But...Hey! My mind is open to reading what these men had to say about these topics.

By the way,....Yes, Protestants do not pray directly to Mary, but we **DO** hold her in very high esteem and have great respect and reverence for her and her contributions to Jesus’ and His Father's plan for our redemption. We acknowledge that she was a very special and unique person to have been chosen to be the mother of Jesus.

82 posted on 12/31/2008 2:45:11 PM PST by wintertime (Good ideas win! Why? Because people are NOT stupid)
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To: count-your-change

And thank you for your patience too - and your courtesy.

Enjoy your rest...


83 posted on 12/31/2008 3:01:05 PM PST by D-fendr (Deus non alligatur sacramentis sed nos alligamur.)
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To: GonzoII
The word “prayers”, which is highlighted in the quotation, is the Hebrew word,
“nasa’” and is used in the following way:

nasa’
naw-saw’
or nacah (Psalm ‘’eb’ (4) : ‘’abad’ (6) (7)) {naw-saw’}; a primitive root; to lift, in a great variety of applications, literal and figurative, absol. and rel. (as follows):—accept, advance, arise, (able to, (armor), suffer to) bear(-er, up), bring (forth), burn, carry (away), cast, contain, desire, ease, exact, exalt (self), extol, fetch, forgive, furnish, further, give, go on, help, high, hold up, honorable (+ man), lade, lay, lift (self) up, lofty, marry, magnify, X needs, obtain, pardon, raise (up), receive, regard, respect, set (up), spare, stir up, + swear, take (away, up), X utterly, wear, yield.”

Hence other translations use the terms “accepted, showed consideration, granted” for “nasa’” as at Gen. 32:20 without the sense of the English word, “prayers”.

Lot had “spoken” or Hebrew “dabar”

” a primitive root; perhaps properly, to arrange; but used figuratively (of words), to speak; rarely (in a destructive sense) to subdue:—answer, appoint, bid, command, commune, declare, destroy, give, name, promise, pronounce, rehearse, say, speak, be spokesman, subdue, talk, teach, tell, think, use (entreaties), utter, X well, X work.”

It has much more force than simply “said” or “say” as this same word, “dabar” is used at Gen. 18:33 of God communing with or speaking with Abraham.
Certainly God wasn't praying nor was Lot when he spoke, entreated God (the angels being His spokesmen) to spare a city for Lot's escape.

But the Hebrew< “palal”, or “pray”, is used at Gen. 20:7 and is different entirely from what Lot did in making a request, speaking.

If there is an instance of “nasa’” or “dabar” being used in the same sense as the English “pray” I must have missed it, though it's possible blind as I am.

Is any of this helpful or have I simply buried the subject?

84 posted on 12/31/2008 4:11:48 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham

Over the years, I have posted almost 8k comments. Of these, many have been posts venting my displeasure with the tenets of the Catholic church and it’s false (in my opinion) teachings. With few exceptions, every post has been cause for Admin. reprimands of one sort or another.

As and equal opportunity basher, nothing said about any other religious group has garnered anything near the verbal reprimands received when criticizing the Catholic church.

As far as your “load of feces” comment … great debating comeback.

;-)


85 posted on 12/31/2008 8:31:46 PM PST by doc1019
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To: annalex; GonzoII
We don't go by dictionaries, we go by intended meaning.

Basically true. However, we do find intended meanings by looking at the original language the Bible was written in an then look into Biblical dictionaries to learn what the intended meanings are or could be.

I'm not going to spend all night to night going over every verse that has the word "bowing" in it. GonzoII seems to think that bowing is the same as saluting, which I completely disagree. I was in the military and I know the difference between saluting an officer (which is a outward recognition of the superior position the person holds) and bowing to someone. I can respect Mary or Joseph or Abraham or David, without building a supposed likeness of them and bowing to it.

To attempt to keep this somewhat short I will look at Exodus 20:3-5

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;


In verse three, the word for god is 'elohiym meaning
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God

The Catholic Church assigns roles to Mary that are only given to Jesus, such as mediator.

1Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

That means that the Catholic Church has made Mary a god.

Verse two is pretty clear that there should be NO graven image of ANY kind. Deuteronomy says it another way....

Deut. 4:16 Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

And verse three continues with the thought that not only are you not to place anything or anyone in the place of God, or not make any image of such a thing or person, but you are not to BOW before this image.

Now I can believe that not all Catholics are worshiping Mary anymore than I am worshiping my Christmas tree when I bow to get my presents, BUT I do also KNOW of Catholics who are bowing before graven images of Mary and asking of Mary to mediate for them. That is in direct disobedience to God's written instructions.

You can do what you want, and do all the word dances you want, but in the end you will have to stand before God and explain it. Some day you will have to explain your actions before God. As for me, I wouldn't feel too comfortable trying to use your "lawyerly arguments" with God in trying to explain why I was bowing before a graven image, when the written Word is pretty clear.
86 posted on 12/31/2008 9:54:46 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: wintertime

Catholics seem to miss the point that non-Catholics don’t place all of the beliefs of their leaders (dead or alive) above the Word of God. Luther and Calvin and others were great leaders and showed great truths that exist in the Bible, but not everything they said or believed in is Biblical.

All Christians should study the Bible and know what it says, and revere that. If others revere the facts proclaimed in the Bible, then they can be honored for that, but not placed above the written Word of God.


87 posted on 12/31/2008 10:08:00 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: count-your-change
"Is any of this helpful or have I simply buried the subject?

In context Lot sure made a request of the angel, I can't see it any other way.

88 posted on 12/31/2008 10:22:08 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

The quote in your post said “prayers” and it was highlighted.
Was that to show Lot prayed to the angels? I’m trying to understand what the point of your prior post was.

I had asked, “Where in the Scriptures does anyone pray to the saints in heaven? For any reason?”

And your answer,

“In Gen. Ch. 19, Lot ask the Angels not to destroy a city and they listen to his prayers “

Did Lot pray to the angels or make a request, or are you saying there’s no difference?

I know..I’m slow on the uptake, but I also don’t want to misunderstand what you’re saying so bear with me, if possoble.


89 posted on 12/31/2008 11:18:00 PM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ScubieNuc
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

In context these things are not to be made and worshiped.

Exodus 25 "1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying:...18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory

Numbers 21: 8 And the LORD said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

1 Kgs 6: 2 And the house, which king Solomon built to the Lord, was threescore cubits in length,...23 And he made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of ten cubits in height. 24 One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub was five cubits: that is, in all ten cubits, from the extremity of one wing to the extremity of the other wing. 26 The second cherub also was ten cubits: and the measure, and the work was the same in both the cherubims: 26 That is to say, one cherub was ten cubits high, and in like manner the other cherub.

1 Kgs 7: 25 And it stood upon twelve oxen, of which three looked towards the north, and three towards the west, and three towards the south, and three towards the east,... 29 And between the little crowns and the ledges were lions, and oxen, and cherubims...

Statues and pictures are visual aids to prayer and nothing more, I can pray to God in front of a statue but not to a statue.

90 posted on 12/31/2008 11:27:49 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: count-your-change
"Did Lot pray to the angels or make a request, or are you saying there’s no difference?"

He made a request. Yes I'm saying there is no difference, but I admit that word "to" causes problems.

What Catholics do when they pray "to" a Saint or Angel is present a request "to" the angel or saint who then gives it "to" Jesus, much as a Prayer Thread here a FR is presented "to" me, BUT, I give the request from the Prayer Thread to JESUS the ONE mediator between God and man. Jesus just allows me to ask him for something but ultimately he takes the request to the Father and obtains what I ask.

Maybe a better word Catholics could use instead of "to" is "through" because the prayer does not stop at me, an Angel or a Saint it goes on to Jesus then to the Father.

BTW I wish you a Blessed and Happy New Year! I'm nine hours into it already.

91 posted on 12/31/2008 11:54:21 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: GonzoII

Thank you for allowing me a measure of your time, not a small thing today, we’ll have to do this again soon. Cheers!


92 posted on 01/01/2009 1:17:29 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: ScubieNuc; GonzoII

The graven image prohibition was given to Jews. We are not Old Covenant Jews. Jesus does not repeat it and given the fact of His incarnation, the graven image prohibition makes no sense. Jesus is the image of God.

Regarding some perhaps worshipping Mary in the true sense of worship, well that is wrong. There is indeed a movement to incorporate Mary into the Holy Trinity. Those people are wrong, and the Catholic Church did nothing to encourage that. They are like the Protestants, a movement that wants the traditions of men to supercede the historical Deposit of Faith. They are wrong just like Luther was wrong.

Happy New Year. If there are any points in your post I should have adressed and I did not, please point that out. I have two bottles of champaigne inside of me, and so should you.


93 posted on 01/01/2009 1:38:59 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: annalex
Happy New Year!

I've studied some of the thread you gave me about Icons.

When you have the time let me know what the definition of the word "canon" means as regards iconography

Take care.

94 posted on 01/01/2009 2:35:36 AM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: annalex
The graven image prohibition was given to Jews. We are not Old Covenant Jews.

1Cor. 10:14 Wherefore, my dearly beloved, flee from idolatry.

Regarding some perhaps worshipping Mary in the true sense of worship, well that is wrong.

From Vatican 2 (http://www.vatican.net/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html):

65. But while in the most holy Virgin the Church has already reached that perfection whereby she is without spot or wrinkle, the followers of Christ still strive to increase in holiness by conquering sin.(300) And so they turn their eyes to Mary who shines forth to the whole community of the elect as the model of virtues. Piously meditating on her and contemplating her in the light of the Word made man, the Church with reverence enters more intimately into the great mystery of the Incarnation and becomes more and more like her Spouse. For Mary, who since her entry into salvation history unites in herself and re-echoes the greatest teachings of the faith as she is proclaimed and venerated, calls the faithful to her Son and His sacrifice and to the love of the Father.

That reads like worship to me.

Happy New Year.

Thank you. And to you.

If there are any points in your post I should have adressed and I did not, please point that out.

No, that's fine. I don't have the time to ride the theological Mary-go-round. I just felt compelled to make a point, and now it's time for me to move on.

I have two bottles of champaigne inside of me, and so should you.

No thank you.
95 posted on 01/01/2009 2:55:58 AM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc; wintertime; doc1019; count-your-change; All

If I might add a few things that might help clarify some stuff, off the top of my head...

-Prayers to Mary are considered ‘private devotions’

-Private devotions are -not- taught, nor are they proclaimed, by the Church to be doctrine or dogma. This means ya don’t have to do it, at all. It is not required by faith or practice.

Etymology of worship and ‘pray to’:

-Modern english speaking Catholics don’t use the word ‘worship’ unless it’s in relation to God. So, for us in 2009 (Happy new year and all that, btw) there is no “worship” of Mary, period.

-However (sorry), there are traditional theologians who would still use the word ‘worship’ to describe ‘pray to’ like we’re talking about here, but, they mean ‘pray to’ in our 2009 here and now language. It’s one of the “3 degrees of worship”, one was for God, one for saints, and one for Mary.

So if you hear someone say ‘we don’t pray to Mary’ you can tell them that that’s bad terminology.

Yeah, we can see how people might get the mistaken impression we’re worshiping Mary idols, putting Mary before God or on par with Him with the phrase Mother of God, and all that. But you’re wrong. Do try to understand there’s a couple thousand years behind everything the Church does...

Please excuse me, I’m too tired and still a little inebriated, so I’m not getting into the whole what does the phrase “Mother of God” mean right at the moment. I think it was explained already anyways.

btw that was cool about the nasa thing count-your-change, I didn’t know that’s what that word meant


96 posted on 01/01/2009 3:27:25 AM PST by nominal (Christus dominus. Christus veritas.)
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To: A.A. Cunningham
You have your opinion, I have mine. I tried to read the Council of Ephesus from 431. All I got was a headache. This has been argued about for over 1578 years. It will NOT be settled here. Peace and have a Happy New Year.
97 posted on 01/01/2009 6:18:17 AM PST by seemoAR
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To: ScubieNuc
That means that the Catholic Church has made Mary a god.

Can you point to a single publication of the Roman Catholic Church that says this?

What you'll find is that they ask her to do the same thing that you would ask of any loved one, to pray FOR you TO God.

98 posted on 01/01/2009 7:46:21 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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To: nominal

The holiday cheer can bite us, can’t it. Anyway your explanation of how you view prayer was most appreciated.

With thanks.


99 posted on 01/01/2009 8:18:10 AM PST by count-your-change (You don't have be brilliant, not being stupid is enough.)
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To: annalex

Sorry. I am persuaded by many Biblical scholars and by many Bible commentaries, written by greek scholars, that the CATHOLIC interpertation of Matthew 16:18 is mis-guided and wrong. Have a Happy New Year.


100 posted on 01/01/2009 11:27:06 AM PST by LeonardFMason
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