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To: annalex; GonzoII
We don't go by dictionaries, we go by intended meaning.

Basically true. However, we do find intended meanings by looking at the original language the Bible was written in an then look into Biblical dictionaries to learn what the intended meanings are or could be.

I'm not going to spend all night to night going over every verse that has the word "bowing" in it. GonzoII seems to think that bowing is the same as saluting, which I completely disagree. I was in the military and I know the difference between saluting an officer (which is a outward recognition of the superior position the person holds) and bowing to someone. I can respect Mary or Joseph or Abraham or David, without building a supposed likeness of them and bowing to it.

To attempt to keep this somewhat short I will look at Exodus 20:3-5

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me;


In verse three, the word for god is 'elohiym meaning
1) (plural)
a) rulers, judges
b) divine ones
c) angels
d) gods
2) (plural intensive - singular meaning)
a) god, goddess
b) godlike one
c) works or special possessions of God

The Catholic Church assigns roles to Mary that are only given to Jesus, such as mediator.

1Timothy 2:5 For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

That means that the Catholic Church has made Mary a god.

Verse two is pretty clear that there should be NO graven image of ANY kind. Deuteronomy says it another way....

Deut. 4:16 Lest ye corrupt [yourselves], and make you a graven image, the similitude of any figure, the likeness of male or female,

And verse three continues with the thought that not only are you not to place anything or anyone in the place of God, or not make any image of such a thing or person, but you are not to BOW before this image.

Now I can believe that not all Catholics are worshiping Mary anymore than I am worshiping my Christmas tree when I bow to get my presents, BUT I do also KNOW of Catholics who are bowing before graven images of Mary and asking of Mary to mediate for them. That is in direct disobedience to God's written instructions.

You can do what you want, and do all the word dances you want, but in the end you will have to stand before God and explain it. Some day you will have to explain your actions before God. As for me, I wouldn't feel too comfortable trying to use your "lawyerly arguments" with God in trying to explain why I was bowing before a graven image, when the written Word is pretty clear.
86 posted on 12/31/2008 9:54:46 PM PST by ScubieNuc
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To: ScubieNuc
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth:

In context these things are not to be made and worshiped.

Exodus 25 "1 And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying:...18 Thou shalt make also two cherubims of beaten gold, on the two sides of the oracle. 19 Let one cherub be on the one side, and the other on the other. 20 Let them cover both sides of the propitiatory, spreading their wings, and covering the oracle, and let them look one towards the other, their faces being turned towards the propitiatory

Numbers 21: 8 And the LORD said to him: Make a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. 9 Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed.

1 Kgs 6: 2 And the house, which king Solomon built to the Lord, was threescore cubits in length,...23 And he made in the oracle two cherubims of olive tree, of ten cubits in height. 24 One wing of the cherub was five cubits, and the other wing of the cherub was five cubits: that is, in all ten cubits, from the extremity of one wing to the extremity of the other wing. 26 The second cherub also was ten cubits: and the measure, and the work was the same in both the cherubims: 26 That is to say, one cherub was ten cubits high, and in like manner the other cherub.

1 Kgs 7: 25 And it stood upon twelve oxen, of which three looked towards the north, and three towards the west, and three towards the south, and three towards the east,... 29 And between the little crowns and the ledges were lions, and oxen, and cherubims...

Statues and pictures are visual aids to prayer and nothing more, I can pray to God in front of a statue but not to a statue.

90 posted on 12/31/2008 11:27:49 PM PST by GonzoII ("That they may be one...Father")
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To: ScubieNuc; GonzoII

The graven image prohibition was given to Jews. We are not Old Covenant Jews. Jesus does not repeat it and given the fact of His incarnation, the graven image prohibition makes no sense. Jesus is the image of God.

Regarding some perhaps worshipping Mary in the true sense of worship, well that is wrong. There is indeed a movement to incorporate Mary into the Holy Trinity. Those people are wrong, and the Catholic Church did nothing to encourage that. They are like the Protestants, a movement that wants the traditions of men to supercede the historical Deposit of Faith. They are wrong just like Luther was wrong.

Happy New Year. If there are any points in your post I should have adressed and I did not, please point that out. I have two bottles of champaigne inside of me, and so should you.


93 posted on 01/01/2009 1:38:59 AM PST by annalex (http://www.catecheticsonline.com/CatenaAurea.php)
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To: ScubieNuc
That means that the Catholic Church has made Mary a god.

Can you point to a single publication of the Roman Catholic Church that says this?

What you'll find is that they ask her to do the same thing that you would ask of any loved one, to pray FOR you TO God.

98 posted on 01/01/2009 7:46:21 AM PST by FormerLib (Sacrificing our land and our blood cannot buy protection from jihad.-Bishop Artemije of Kosovo)
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