Posted on 12/21/2008 5:22:47 PM PST by ROTB
Edited on 12/21/2008 9:23:40 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Merry Christmas!
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. In the days of the Kingdom of Israel, when David and Solomon reigned, a king who was named by God would have oil poured over their heads prior to ruling. This is called "Anointing". The Hebrew form of this word is “Mashiach” which is anglo-ized into "Messiah".
"Jesus" is the Greek form of "Je-ho-shua" which means "Savior of God".
Thus "Jesus Christ" means "Anointed Savior of God".
The whole premise of Judaism, is that God gave the Law, the Torah, to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai about 3000 years ago as a model of justice and for forgiveness of sins, and that a Messiah has been promised by God, and Jewish people wait for the fulfillment of this promise.
We know that the Bible, is the Word of God, because only it says what happens, thousands of years before it happens. To see the evidence for this, please visit http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html. This is not Gematria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria), or Kabbalah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah). It is hard numbers, verifiable evidence for God being the author of the Tanakh. People and Devils can't do this. Only God can. He even boasts that only he can, and I have only seen this kind of evidence in the Bible. If Islam had this kind of evidence, the Muslims would shout it “from the rooftops”.
So what does the Word of God say about us? It says that we sin. All of the following verses are from the a Jewish Tanakh ...
And the Lord smelled the pleasing odor; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing, as I have done. Genesis 8:21 Soncino Tanakh
If they sin against you, for there is no man who does not sin, and you are angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives to a land far or near; II Chronicles 6:36 Soncino Tanakh
If they sin against you, for there is no man who does not sin, and you are angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near; 1 Kings 8:21 Soncino Tanakh
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any who understand, and seek God. They have all gone astray, they have all become corrupted; there is none that does good, no, not one. Psalms 14:2-3 Soncino Tanakh
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any who understand, who seek God. They have all fallen away; they have all become filthy; there is no one who does good, not even one. Psalms 53:3-4 Soncino Tanakh
If you, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with you, that you may be feared. Psalms 130:3 Soncino Tanakh
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? Proverbs 20:9 Soncino Tanakh
You struck down him who rejoiced and worked righteousness, who remembered you in your ways; behold, you are angry; for we have sinned; in those ways we have been always; how then shall we be saved? But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous actions are as filthy rags; and we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none who calls upon your name, who stirs up himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have consumed us, because of our iniquities. Isaiah 64:4-6 Soncino Tanakh
For there is not a just man upon earth, that does good, and does not sin. Ecclesiastes 7:20 Soncino Tanakh
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11 Soncino Tanakh
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event to all; also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Ecclesiastes 9:3 Soncino Tanakh
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9 Soncino Tanakh
The good man has perished from the earth; and there is no one upright among men; they all lie in wait for blood; each man hunts his brother with a net. The hands are upon that which is evil, the prince asks, and the judge asks for payment; and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave the web. Soncino Tanakh Micah 7:2-3
How does God forgive sins? He is very clear ...
For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11
Blood must be shed for forgiveness of sin. That's God talking in the above excerpt. Not a Rabbi, not a Christian, and certainly not me.
By now, you should be afraid of death. Nobody is without sin, and nobody is exempted from needing blood for atonement of their souls. Rabbis aren't God, so you should not believe them.
The Tanakh of Judaism gives over 300 hints at what the coming of the messiah would involve and entail. You can read them for yourself at http://messiahrevealed.org/category-index.html.
One of the most compelling is this verse from Isaiah ...
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6 Soncino Tanakh
Is not that comforting? Despite the fact we are sinners, God has laid our sins, on this person!
No where in the Tanakh does it say “the Messiah can't come twice”, or “The Messiah must accomplish all in one visit”. Unlike your Rabbi, I have gone through the Tanakh at least four times, and have yet to find it.
Where are we?
1)God wrote the Bible 2)The Bible says we are sinners 3)Blood must make atonement for our sins
Let's go back to Isaiah 53 again ...
”the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:6
Who is this person? It is the Messiah. Jesus Christ.
Christianity is nothing more than the fulfillment of Judaism's promise of a Messiah. What's that Cousin Philip? Yes, right on schedule, per http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html as you have already read. Also the 300+ hints you visited at http://messiahrevealed.org/category-index.html all have fulfillments.
Jesus Christ, also known as “Jehoshua Ha Mashiach” among Israeli Christians, is the Messiah and HaShem, a.k.a. God.
Jehoshua Ha Mashiach, was executed on a cross in 32 A.D. for the crimes of ...
1)claiming to be God and Messiah
Pretty severe eh? When you believe in Jesus Christ, full blood payment per Leviticus 17:11 is applied to your account. God takes your sins per Isaiah 53:11, and you get the righteousness of God per Romans 3:23. From then on, you get to know God, just like in the good old days when Israel knew God.
If you have any objections or questions, please don't hesitate to ask me. I have never encountered a question that did not have a satisfactory or better answer in 9 years of being a Christian. Never, not once.
This is worth 100 hours of your life. Please, I'm begging you all. May all of you live to 120 years! But frankly, none of you know if you have another decade, year, month, week, or day more on this earth. Anything can happen, and eternal hellfire is a long, long, long time.
After 100 billion years, your punishment for your sins, will have just begun. This question of whether Jesus Christ is Messiah and God, is worth looking into.
God wants to know you, love you, forgive you, and strengthen you to stand boldly against evil for the name of Jehoshua Ha Mashiach, a.k.a. Jesus Christ.
Don't put this off.
Your loving cousin,
Torah will never “pass away.” Even when the Prophets and Hagiographa are not longer publicly read as scripture Torah (and the Book of Esther) still will be. Also how do you “prove” that chr*stianity is the “new covenant” prophesied by Jeremiah? If you do so by quoting the “new testament,” then we will get nowhere, since it is the validity and trustworthiness of the “new testament” that is the matter of dispute before us.
I am busy working on an exposition of the Jewish position. Unfortunately I lost much of it and am having to rewrite a great deal but will do the best I can. Your patience is appreciated.
If the “kingdom of Heaven” began 2000 years ago, then obviously you do not believe in a literal millenial kingdom.
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How do I prove Christianity is the New Covenant? Good question Sir! The Tanach/Old Testament points to it. Please read http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html and http://messiahrevealed.org/category-index.html for an overview.
The “kingdom of Heaven” began 2000 years ago, in that according to the New Covenant promised in the Tanach/Old Testament, those who believe it would have their “heart of stone” exchanged for a “heart of flesh”. Jeremiah again I believe. God did say in the Torah 7 times by my count, that the Jewish people are “stiff necked”. Ezekiel 3 expounds the same, more humorously.
The literal/physical Kingdom will begin when Jehoshua Melech Ha Moshiach (Jesus King Messiah) comes back, like he said he would. 300+ prophecies were fulfilled in the 1st coming, and 150+ (?) remain unfulfilled, until his 2nd.
Have a great day Sir!
I will have a great day. Thank you. I suggest you read material before dismissing it. Just a suggestion.
There are many parts of Torah that are not observed at this time, the yovel being one example. Have you never read the threats of exile written in the Torah? During exiles when there is no Temple or Altar on Har HaMoriyyah offerings cannot be made.
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According to the Talmud, 40 years before the destruction of the 2nd temple, God stopped accepting the sacrifices of the Jewish people, though there was no exile.
At that exact time, Jesus was preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, and performing miracles, and claiming to be God, and Son of Man, ... and called an agent of the devil by the Rabbis.
I think God showed the Jewish leaders of 30A.D. exactly what he thought of their spiritual discernment, and leadership of the Jewish people.
Have a great day Sir.
Please forgive me, but chr*stians have been saying this for 2000 years and stating the claim does not prove it. Neither do the "new testament's" claims prove anything to anyone who doesn't believe it already.
According to the Talmud, 40 years before the destruction of the 2nd temple, God stopped accepting the sacrifices of the Jewish people, though there was no exile.
At that exact time, Jesus was preaching the Kingdom of Heaven, and performing miracles, and claiming to be God, and Son of Man, ... and called an agent of the devil by the Rabbis.
I think God showed the Jewish leaders of 30A.D. exactly what he thought of their spiritual discernment, and leadership of the Jewish people.
So you're saying that the Jews of the time actually knew that J*sus was the messiah but rejected him anyway just out of pure "meanness," like some villain from a stage melodrama? You must think the Jewish people are EVIL.
Please read my upcoming post which is pitched at antinomian Protestants like yourself.
No, salvation is not earned; the elect will be saved through the merits of Christ, with Whom they cooperate in obedience.
You are correct though that substitutionary atonement is only one way to explain the Paschal Mystery. Older theologies exist, to wit, the Ransom view that teaches how Christ redeemed men from their slavery to Satan, and the pedagogical atonement view that teaches that Jesus gave men an example of obedience and love who the elect follow.
Substitutionary atonement is the most recent of the three, and the only one adopted by the Protestant communities of faith. The Catholic Church holds all three acceptable. The Orthodox Church strongly prefers the Ransom view.
The idea that men can earn their salvation on their own merit ouitside of the saving grace of Christ is heretical. We are saved because Christ loves us and we love Him back. Obedience is secondary to that love.
Thank you for your contribution to this thread.
Barney says, "I luv you... you luv me..."
:-P
bfltr
Agreed. I’m not Jewish and *I* find it offensive to be harangued.
> stating the claim does not prove it.
I stated the claim, and provided links to the evidence supporting the claim Sir. The evidence supports the claim, not my assertion.
> So you’re saying that the Jews of the time actually knew that J*sus was the messiah but rejected him anyway just out of pure “meanness,” like some villain from a stage melodrama? You must think the Jewish people are EVIL.
No. Born Jewish myself. They are still the apple of God’s eye. See Romans 11, and please read the “yfiles” link I provided.
Given the Old Testament/Tanach describes the depravity of the Jewish people and leaders prior to the destruction of the 1st Temple, is it so surprising that they would be in a like state of spiritual darkness 40 years before the destruction of the 2nd?
Jesus claimed to be God, and did Miracles, at exactly the time Daniel and Moses said he would arrive, Daniel’s prophecy illustrated in the link I provided. The Rabbis said he cast out devils by the prince of devils. At the identical time, the Talmud says that God stopped accepting the sacrifices of the Jewish people.
This is not a coincidence. It is God calling out to the Jewish people and the world, to faith in Yehoshua Ha Mashiach.
With a former chr*stian arguing with a former Jew over the superiority of our new beliefs, we’re not likely to get anything done.
Only if we sidestep the evidence.
There's no zeal like that of a convert, is there?
Please read my vanity post and we'll talk. Till then we're just talking past each other.
Yes sir! And please also carefully the “yfiles” link, and run through the fulfilled 300+ prophecy list, while I read your vanity.
No, you in fact stated that Paul taught that the universe was created so that "Israel could observe the Torah." Here's the exchange:
You: The universe was created so Israel could observe the Torah (it is not a temporary "schoolmaster" to prepare the way for the Messiah).
Me: That certainly isn't a Christian belief.
You: Funny. That's what your apostle Paul said.
I ask yet again, where does Paul say that "the universe was created so Israel could observe the Torah"?
Please cite directly to scripture or other source upon which you rely in making that rather surprising assertion.
You: The universe was created so Israel could observe the Torah (it is not a temporary "schoolmaster" to prepare the way for the Messiah).
Me: That certainly isn't a Christian belief.
I assumed you were denying that it was a chr*stian belief that the Torah was a "temporary schoolmaster to prepare the way for the messiah."
You: Funny. That's what your apostle Paul said.
By which I meant "your apostle Paul said that the Torah was a temporary schoolmaster to pave the way for the messiah."
I'm sorry, but I'm not seeing why this is so hard for you to understand.
I’m sorry. I think Noahides are misplaced Israelites that do not have the full historic picture of the Kingdom of Israel. You are most likely Abraham’s seed who was cast into the nations as judgement on the House of Israel in 721 BC. All of your emotional draw to the Hebrew Faith is because of your DNA. Isn’t it wonderful Yahshua said “I came only for the House of Israel.” so the House of Judah to this day is still blind to Him but is a recipient of His work.
"For the law will go forth from Zion, And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem." - Isaiah.
“If I knew God I’d be Him.”
No, it does not follow.
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