Posted on 12/21/2008 5:22:47 PM PST by ROTB
Edited on 12/21/2008 9:23:40 PM PST by Admin Moderator. [history]
Merry Christmas!
Christmas is the celebration of the birth of Jesus Christ 2000 years ago. In the days of the Kingdom of Israel, when David and Solomon reigned, a king who was named by God would have oil poured over their heads prior to ruling. This is called "Anointing". The Hebrew form of this word is “Mashiach” which is anglo-ized into "Messiah".
"Jesus" is the Greek form of "Je-ho-shua" which means "Savior of God".
Thus "Jesus Christ" means "Anointed Savior of God".
The whole premise of Judaism, is that God gave the Law, the Torah, to the Jewish people at Mount Sinai about 3000 years ago as a model of justice and for forgiveness of sins, and that a Messiah has been promised by God, and Jewish people wait for the fulfillment of this promise.
We know that the Bible, is the Word of God, because only it says what happens, thousands of years before it happens. To see the evidence for this, please visit http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html. This is not Gematria (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gematria), or Kabbalah (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kabbalah). It is hard numbers, verifiable evidence for God being the author of the Tanakh. People and Devils can't do this. Only God can. He even boasts that only he can, and I have only seen this kind of evidence in the Bible. If Islam had this kind of evidence, the Muslims would shout it “from the rooftops”.
So what does the Word of God say about us? It says that we sin. All of the following verses are from the a Jewish Tanakh ...
And the Lord smelled the pleasing odor; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; nor will I again destroy every living thing, as I have done. Genesis 8:21 Soncino Tanakh
If they sin against you, for there is no man who does not sin, and you are angry with them, and deliver them over before their enemies, and they carry them away captives to a land far or near; II Chronicles 6:36 Soncino Tanakh
If they sin against you, for there is no man who does not sin, and you are angry with them, and deliver them to the enemy, so that they carry them away captive to the land of the enemy, far or near; 1 Kings 8:21 Soncino Tanakh
The Lord looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any who understand, and seek God. They have all gone astray, they have all become corrupted; there is none that does good, no, not one. Psalms 14:2-3 Soncino Tanakh
God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any who understand, who seek God. They have all fallen away; they have all become filthy; there is no one who does good, not even one. Psalms 53:3-4 Soncino Tanakh
If you, Lord, should mark iniquities, O Lord, who could stand? But there is forgiveness with you, that you may be feared. Psalms 130:3 Soncino Tanakh
Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin? Proverbs 20:9 Soncino Tanakh
You struck down him who rejoiced and worked righteousness, who remembered you in your ways; behold, you are angry; for we have sinned; in those ways we have been always; how then shall we be saved? But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteous actions are as filthy rags; and we all fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away. And there is none who calls upon your name, who stirs up himself to take hold of you; for you have hidden your face from us, and have consumed us, because of our iniquities. Isaiah 64:4-6 Soncino Tanakh
For there is not a just man upon earth, that does good, and does not sin. Ecclesiastes 7:20 Soncino Tanakh
Because sentence against an evil work is not executed speedily, the heart of the sons of men is fully set in them to do evil. Ecclesiastes 8:11 Soncino Tanakh
This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event to all; also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead. Ecclesiastes 9:3 Soncino Tanakh
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked; who can know it? Jeremiah 17:9 Soncino Tanakh
The good man has perished from the earth; and there is no one upright among men; they all lie in wait for blood; each man hunts his brother with a net. The hands are upon that which is evil, the prince asks, and the judge asks for payment; and the great man utters the evil desire of his soul; thus they weave the web. Soncino Tanakh Micah 7:2-3
How does God forgive sins? He is very clear ...
For the life of the flesh [is] in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make an atonement for your souls: for it [is] the blood [that] maketh an atonement for the soul. Leviticus 17:11
Blood must be shed for forgiveness of sin. That's God talking in the above excerpt. Not a Rabbi, not a Christian, and certainly not me.
By now, you should be afraid of death. Nobody is without sin, and nobody is exempted from needing blood for atonement of their souls. Rabbis aren't God, so you should not believe them.
The Tanakh of Judaism gives over 300 hints at what the coming of the messiah would involve and entail. You can read them for yourself at http://messiahrevealed.org/category-index.html.
One of the most compelling is this verse from Isaiah ...
All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all. Isaiah 53:6 Soncino Tanakh
Is not that comforting? Despite the fact we are sinners, God has laid our sins, on this person!
No where in the Tanakh does it say “the Messiah can't come twice”, or “The Messiah must accomplish all in one visit”. Unlike your Rabbi, I have gone through the Tanakh at least four times, and have yet to find it.
Where are we?
1)God wrote the Bible 2)The Bible says we are sinners 3)Blood must make atonement for our sins
Let's go back to Isaiah 53 again ...
”the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.” Isaiah 53:6
Who is this person? It is the Messiah. Jesus Christ.
Christianity is nothing more than the fulfillment of Judaism's promise of a Messiah. What's that Cousin Philip? Yes, right on schedule, per http://www.direct.ca/trinity/y3nf.html as you have already read. Also the 300+ hints you visited at http://messiahrevealed.org/category-index.html all have fulfillments.
Jesus Christ, also known as “Jehoshua Ha Mashiach” among Israeli Christians, is the Messiah and HaShem, a.k.a. God.
Jehoshua Ha Mashiach, was executed on a cross in 32 A.D. for the crimes of ...
1)claiming to be God and Messiah
Pretty severe eh? When you believe in Jesus Christ, full blood payment per Leviticus 17:11 is applied to your account. God takes your sins per Isaiah 53:11, and you get the righteousness of God per Romans 3:23. From then on, you get to know God, just like in the good old days when Israel knew God.
If you have any objections or questions, please don't hesitate to ask me. I have never encountered a question that did not have a satisfactory or better answer in 9 years of being a Christian. Never, not once.
This is worth 100 hours of your life. Please, I'm begging you all. May all of you live to 120 years! But frankly, none of you know if you have another decade, year, month, week, or day more on this earth. Anything can happen, and eternal hellfire is a long, long, long time.
After 100 billion years, your punishment for your sins, will have just begun. This question of whether Jesus Christ is Messiah and God, is worth looking into.
God wants to know you, love you, forgive you, and strengthen you to stand boldly against evil for the name of Jehoshua Ha Mashiach, a.k.a. Jesus Christ.
Don't put this off.
Your loving cousin,
Perhaps it is. But it's wrong.
The universe was created so Israel could observe the Torah (it is not a temporary "schoolmaster" to prepare the way for the Messiah).
That certainly isn't a Christian belief.
Funny. That's what your apostle Paul said.
The idea that Christ died as ransom for our sins is from the very beginning.
Fundamentalist Protestants reject "ransom" in favor of "vicarious damnation," a development of Anselm's substitutionary atonement theory. It is because of this idea that Chr*st's vicarious damnation makes all human behavior (for good or evil) of no consequence that forms the basis of all antinomian "faith only" Protestantism, and this is the reason such people reject the eternal validity of the Torah. It is such a person who began this thread and to whom I was replying.
He was born on the YHvH commanded Feast of Tabernacles. A clear reading of Luke 1, John 1 and Chronicles will demonstrate this fact. Yah'shua was not born on a Pagan feast of winter !
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
PaRDeS is not the same as the chr*stian concept of the “old testament” being a “shadow” of a new, superior religion. PaRDeS assumes the eternal validity of Torah.
Here’s a book for you to read that a friend wrote: http://www.26reasons.com/
I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
Thank You!
This is a big part of why it can be so hard to witness to Jews. When you try to tell them that you worship a 'messiah' that was born on the birth date of a false pagan god, you will make no headway with them. Most Jews at least recognize that all of God's events happen on his appointed days, not just any old time. They know that Messiach must come at the appointed time.
Awaiting mashiach, though undivine.
Yet America could not have been founded without Christ and Christians.
Happy Chanukah/Merry Christmas to All.
In Ezra chapter 3 having the temple in place was not necessary to the offering of sacrifices as Zerubbabel and others simply built an altar to sacrifice upon “ according to what is written in the law of Moses”.
“Unless of course you aren't referring to liberal Jews but to Orthodox Jews and you're saying they don't follow Torah because they don't offer sacrifices in Jerusalem (which they can't until all the criteria are met; to do so in the absence of those criteria would be to violate Torah, not follow it. And this is the real Messiah's job: to put things back so all Torah may once again be observed (ie, rebuild the Temple, etc.).”
So did Zerubbabel violate Torah?
My question about the Sabbath was in light of performing the Law without “all criteria” in place. And who of any Jewish group observes the Sabbath year, a part of Torah?
Then of course if Talmudic teaching is correct no temple, only repentance, is needed to expiate sin. (Joma viii, 8)
Funny. That's what your apostle Paul said.
I am unaware of such an utterance by St. Paul, who says quite clearly that the universe was created for Jesus:
“For in him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible … all things were created through him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together” (Col. 1:16-17).
To what scripture do you refer?
May one ask, why?
Since no one today can trace his lineage back to Aaron or Levi having that as a condition to rebuilding the temple means never rebuilding it.
Wow. I guess that solves that problem. [/sarc]
And who of any Jewish group observes the Sabbath year, a part of Torah?
There are many parts of Torah that are not observed at this time, the yovel being one example. Have you never read the threats of exile written in the Torah? During exiles when there is no Temple or Altar on Har HaMoriyyah offerings cannot be made.
Other than that you'll have to await my longer post.
He’s the only one who returned my call.
Thanks for your service! Blessings to you all.
Also, Paul did not teach that the Torah was a "school master." He taught that Jesus was the Word of God, and so he was, quite literally, the Torah. Anything that Jesus taught was therefore the purest Torah.
You're correct that Paul taught that the universe was created for the Torah, it's just that the Torah is Jesus.
As I said, we are at cross purposes. If memory serves me correctly, I said something like "that's what Paul taught." You assumed I was referring to the claim that the universe was created for Israel and Torah, when I was actually referring to was the assertion that Torah is a mere "schoolmaster" to lead people to Chr*st. That is what I meant when I said "that's what Paul taught."
The whole point of my post is to contrast the authentic Jewish understanding with that of Paul and chr*stianity. I'm sorry if that didn't come across very well.
Company has now left and I'm trying to work on my answer to this whole thread, though I'm having to rewrite most of it from scratch, and it never turns out as good after that. Oh well. I'll do my best!
Please be patient.
Well met!
A Blessed Christmas to You and Yours!
Thank you so much for your time.
I carefully read through the objections to Jesus Christ in www.jewsforjudaism.org from 2002-2003. I came away extremely unimpressed with the case against Jesus made by Jews.
For example, I remember they were doubting that Jesus ever existed. The number of extra-biblical references to Jesus made by his enemies proves this patently false.
I expect this is more of the same.
Have a great day.
PaRDeS is not the same as the chr*stian concept of the “old testament” being a “shadow” of a new, superior religion. PaRDeS assumes the eternal validity of Torah.
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You’re forgetting that ...
1) God said he would use “dark speeches” with all but Moses.
2) God said that he would use “similitudes”. I can dig it up if you tell me you don’t believe me.
Torah is God’s word Sir. It’s just passed away given that the “New Covenant” promised in Jeremiah is upon us.
Why else would God stop accepting the sacrifices of Israel 40 years before the destruction of the 2nd Temple in 70 A.D.? That’s Talmud. I can dig it up for you if you are not familiar with it Sir.
What happened in 30 A.D. to precipitate this?
Jesus proclaimed the kingdom of heaven, and was called an agent of the devil by the ruling Rabbis.
Have a great day!
I’m not too sharp on posting myself so no problem. And I’d be happy to await your exposition. If you choose to use the mail, that would be fine also.
I look forward to your next.
Torah will never "pass away." Even when the Prophets and Hagiographa are not longer publicly read as scripture Torah (and the Book of Esther) still will be. Also how do you "prove" that chr*stianity is the "new covenent" prophesied by Jeremiah? If you do so by quoting the "new testament," then we will get nowhere, since it is the validity and trustworthiness of the "new testament" that is the matter of dispute before us.
I am busy working on an exposition of the Jewish position. Unfortunately I lost much of it and am having to rewrite a great deal but will do the best I can. Your patience is appreciated.
If the "kingdom of Heaven" began 2000 years ago, then obviously you do not believe in a literal millenial kingdom.
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