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To: Michael Eden
If life ends at the grave, then ultimately it makes no difference whether one has lived as a Stalin or as a saint since one's destiny is ultimately unrelated to one's behavior.

And yet, I still want to live the most virtuous life that I can. Imagine that.

If there's one thing that we know for sure, one thing that even believers cannot argue, it is that faith alone is by absolutely no means a guarantee of virtue.

Now, I want to be perfectly clear that none of this shows that biblical Christianity is true. That is to say, it seems to me positively irrational to prefer death, futility, and despair to hope, meaningfulness, and happiness. As Pascal said, "we have nothing to lose, and infinity to gain." The cosmic orphan can come home.

I don't see how this person thinks that a half-hearted retread of Pascal's Wager is going to convince anybody who has had a serious thoughtful discussion with themselves and found and that they don't believe. You can't force yourself to believe something that in your mind you know not to be true.

I've thought long and hard about Pascal's bet and I have no wish to believe in a fairy tale just because the fairy tale might be more pleasant. I'd rather deal with the real world and accept that the physical universe cares not a whit for my existence, and it's up to me to preserve it and enjoy it for as long as I can.

It doesn't seem to occur to him either that many people do not want to live under the thumb of a celestial dictator who watches your every move. If Biblical Christianity says that all non-Christians go to hell, then I wouldn't want to go to heaven anyway. I actually take more hope, meaning, and happiness in knowing that it's all not true anyway.

7 posted on 12/16/2008 11:26:12 AM PST by GunRunner
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To: GunRunner

Decades ago I reasoned as you have. Then one day I took a look at the other side of the coin. As this author points out Hope has no meaning without Grace and Resurrection. Merry Christmas!


13 posted on 12/16/2008 11:45:45 AM PST by wastoute
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To: GunRunner
I've thought long and hard about Pascal's bet and I have no wish to believe in a fairy tale just because the fairy tale might be more pleasant.

It's particularly ironic to post Pascal's Wager here. The sort of people who believe based on which alternative is more pleasant rather than on which alternative is grounded in facts and logic are more likely to be found on Democratic Underground.

23 posted on 12/16/2008 12:28:07 PM PST by steve-b (Intelligent design is to evolutionary biology what socialism is to free-market economics.)
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To: GunRunner
It doesn't seem to occur to him either that many people do not want to live under the thumb of a celestial dictator who watches your every move.

LOL. Well that’s one way to look at it. Your opinions are just that, not fact as you seem to assert.

Nor do I think that your views are so original that they escaped the notice of the author. He addressed the views and actions of serious critics of religion. He didn't respond to people when they were just throwing mud. Nor did he throw mud.

There are some things that I regret in my life, but rather than criticize or deny the existence of the “celestial dicatator” who was aware of my actions, I think it better, though harder, to admit my actions and seek forgiveness. To me, that is facing up to reality.

If Biblical Christianity says that all non-Christians go to hell, then I wouldn't want to go to heaven anyway.

Sounds like a false dichotomy.

it's all not true anyway

You opinion again. I imagine you will continue to repeat it. Is that a chant on your part?

49 posted on 12/16/2008 1:37:34 PM PST by ChessExpert (The Dow was at 12,400 when Democrats took control of Congress. What is it today?)
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To: GunRunner

I feel sorry for you.

C.S. Lewis said that hell was closed from the inside by people who prefer bitterness and defiance to what they could have merely by bowing the knee to their Creator.

“Halfhearted”? The brilliance of this presentation is that William Lane Craig cites the views of the most brilliant atheists of the century to back up every single thing he says. As an atheist, how do you say, “These people don’t know what they’re talking about”? They’re YOUR guys, dude!

For you, anyone who thinks like you, and anyone who is considering thinking like you, watch this music video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1CBNE25rtnE&feature=related

It’s such a common thing among atheists to take what is so wonderful and incredible and good - a caring, loving, generous, gracious, intimately involved God of Creation - and warp and pervert it into an obscenity.


50 posted on 12/16/2008 1:45:23 PM PST by Michael Eden
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