Posted on 09/07/2008 12:21:07 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953
Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?"
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
Jesus said to pray to God; works for me.....
So...you never said a Hail Mary?
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1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25).
With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son?
Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
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. . . AHHHHHHH . . . what need?
The political power-mongering "need" on the part of the bureaucratic magicsterical to demote The Son; The Spirit . . . in behalf of exalting the earth-mother/Mary Caricature/Goddess/Queen of Heaven blasphemous image/construct/fantasy.
The Mary Caricature . . . about which and over which the magicsterical has full control--can be manipulated to any ends imaginable for purely political, bureaucratic, power-mongering, financial . . . whatever "needs."
Besides, it seductively fills that foundational human "need" to be "in charge of . . . " "in !!!!CONTROL!!!! of"
each individual's own RELIGIOSITY--DESTINY--SALVATION. !!!!CONTROL!!!! All the 2 year old mommy manipulators LOVE IT.
Coo just right; wail just right; look goo-goo eyes just right; adore just right; snuggle just right; . . . and the cookie's yours! From THE QUEEN OF HEAVEN, no less. [Barf.]
Clever idea.
. . . from the pit.
bookmark
Before Rome was Christian it was common to pray to lessor gods to intercede with greater gods.
Roman Catholics simply replaced Venus with St. Valentine.
No offense, but the "artical" is hard to take seriously.
It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them.
Why "saints or Mary"? Mary is a saint. And what source does the author have for saying what our "official position" is? I personally have no problem saying that I pray to saints and angels as well as to God. They're all personal beings, and prayer is a form of request.
Heck, I pray to my cat, Clint Junior Lightning, who is probably more in the demon category, as in, "Would you puhLEEZE remove your claws from my toe! It's three in the morning!"
Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God.
Catholics view all Christians as intercessors before God.
They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly.
Source? "Official" source? That is practically a cartoonish or nursery school depiction of what I think, so imprecise as to be virtually useless for any serious discussion. It is taking one inadequate metaphor, often used for those not theologically inclined, and blowing it up into an argument.
Ah, the old I Tim 2:5 argument. I haven't seen that in, wow, it must be minutes, maybe even hours! How time flies!
In the normal or garden variety use of the word intercessor or mediator, anyone who asks something on someone else's behalf. In the normal use of words, therefore if Paul, also in the Timothy correspondence, directs us to make supplications, prayers, intercessions (koff koff), and thanksgivings for all men shall we conclude that Paul is contradicting himself? Or shall we rather look into one theme of Paul's discourse, that of being members of Christ and "in" Christ, and wonder if the head of a body normally acts alone, or if in an integrated person the body does what the head directs?
However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching.
It would have been more fruitful and less controversial to stay here. Yes, the thoughts and practices of some Catholics are superstitious and erroneous.
Oh no -- not the "need" argument! Clearly the work of the Son and the intercession of the 2nd and 3rd persons of the Trinity is all we "need". So why does Paul tell us to make supplications and the rest? Maybe it's not about "need"? Maybe it's about being members of the one intercessor -- and acting like it? Something in that neighborhood? Is your side opposed to the asking for prayers threads which appear on FR? I mean what is the "need"?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim.
Let us indeed. Actually this Catholic would claim that praying to the saints, among whom he considers the Mother of God to be preeminent though not different in kind, is not importantly different from asking someone on earth to pray for us. The Bible does not say 2+2=4, but we are allowed to use our heads.
The omniscient argument! I greet it affectionately as I would an old and disreputable, but still endearing, neighborhood drunk!
Look: Even in his evidently rapidly advancing dotage, Ahnold the Gubernator is stronger than I, and richer than I. By the reasoning presented here, I am saying he possesses all strength and all wealth. If we say the saints in heaven have something more than we, how does it follow that they have it all?
As to the wizened and bewhiskered necromancy argument, we Catholics think something happened on Easter Weekend approximately 1970 years, give or take, ago. And what the witch of Endor did with Samuel is as different from what we do with saints is as different as rape is from wooing.
There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone.
So there is no Biblical basis for the threads on Free Republic which ask Freepers to pray for someone? Paul is wrong to ask for the prayers of the Ephesians? This is an example of what I mean by saying it's hard to take this seriously. The point under contention is whether there is some basis or "need" for asking the saints in heaven for their prayers, isn't it? Why not stick to that point? Instead in the peroration this "artical" says there's no basis or need to ask for anyone's prayers, which is plainly contradicted by Paul's own words.
As for "Biblical", we find in the Bible promises that God makes to His Church. For us, that's enough. I try, I do not always succeed, not to pick and choose which of God's promises I will stake my life and thought on.
The article blends erroneous practices with "official" teaching, which it declares but does not support with citations. It confuses MORE power with ALL power. It is ludicrously imprecise, saying here there is no Biblical basis to ask ANYONE for prayers and giving there the very citation of Paul's asking for prayers. It takes analogies and images as theological arguments. It confuses the necromantic compelling of shades with prayerful petition of those who live to God. In general it sends out a sledge hammer to do a scalpel's job. There is a significant difference in our thought. This article fails to present it, IMHO.
There is one type of post on Freerepublic I find it hard to ignore and that is a Prayer Request (and, especially, an Urgent Prayer Request). If we can freely ask for the prayers of our fellow mortals, why can we not ask them of the saints?
Knowing, therefore, what "queen" means, I salute the Queen of Heaven, the Mother of the Lord of Heaven and Earth by whom was not anything made that was made.
Is the title and the "cult" capable of perversion? Clearly. Water can be polluted. That some water is impure does not keep me, by the gracious gifts (or charisms) of God, from drinking pure water. That some who salute the Queen of Heaven do so wrongly, even disastrously, does not keep me from saluting her.
Oh, but maybe I am out of place here. This, evidently is not about reasoned discussion between brethren but about some other activity.
Well, that reason and discussion can be perverted is no reason to abandon them. Since all wisdom comes from God, clearly there is no "need" to look for it in these discussions, right?
We have a direct line to God, we should pray directly to him only. How can Mary and the other saints pray for us when they are asleep in Christ?
Neither is relying on a book to establish Christian faith and practice, but Catholic critics never seem interested in that fact.
Why not go all the way and replace Christ with the fisher-king myth?
That’s it - keep it up. Protestants and Catholics fighting. The Muslim Moon God worshippers LOVE it.
I think that biblical justification for asking the intercession of Mary comes from the wedding at Canna. The servants told Mary they were out of wine and Mary went to Jesus and told him. Christ then performed a miracle (water to wine) after Mary told the servants to “do whatever he tells you” If Christ listened to his earthly mother and honored her request (as the law—Honor you father and your mother) doesn’t it stand to reason that Christ would still revere her and would want us to do the same?
Reverence is different from praying to or worshipping.
Also on the matter of praying for the intercession of saints
I can only offer anecdotal evidence on my part about the intercession of saints—yes I pray to Jesus often but sometimes when there is a special need I ask for the intercession of a saint. Often times it is none other than Saint Anthony—patron of lost items but I have been known to ask St. Joseph’s intercession (fathers and heads of household, Job seekers and workers) When a particular prayer is answered favorably—or not I thank the Lord first then the particular saint who I believe assisted me in my petition.
All I know is that more often than not this seems to work
My sister explained that the situation is something like this: Saints died in the grace of God and are assumed to be in heaven—that is they are sons of the Father and Christ’s brothers/sisters through baptism If they are Christ’s brothers and sisters would he not want us to know his family ? as he hopes that we will someday join in heavenly communion with Father, Son, and Holy Spirit all the choirs of angels and others who died in a state of grace and are now with him in heaven?
JM2B, take it for what it is worth..:)
Because I don't know if it is true or not. I do know that household gods played an important role in pagan Rome and I have personally seen saints used in exactly the same way by Roman Catholics. My father-in-law misplaced his wallet and my Mother-in-law prayed to Saint Anthony of Padua, the "patron saint of lost items" and shazzam! the next time she came up the stairs, she saw the wallet under the bed!. This attribution of a specific sphere of influence for a lessor god is typical of paganism. Hindus pray to Ganesh (the one that Homer Simpson gave a peanut to) for success in business, for example.
“And the Spirit and the Bride say, ‘Come’, and let him that heareth say, ‘Come’, and let him that is athirst come, and whosever will, let him take the water of life freely.” -—Revelation 22:17.
Who cares what Protestants believe? If they do not want a relationship with the Elect, that’s their call.
Good morning,
We are to pray to God the father, not God the mother. I am just trying to get a better understanding of why catholics pray to Mary. Mary was a woman that was highly favored, but even Jesus prayed to God, not to his mother.
Nope. Dirtnap. Sound of the trumpet... too bad...
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