Posted on 09/07/2008 12:21:07 AM PDT by guitarplayer1953
Is prayer to saints / Mary Biblical?"
The issue of Catholics praying to saints is one that is full of confusion. It is the official position of the Roman Catholic Church that Catholics do not pray TO saints or Mary, but rather that Catholics can ask saints or Mary to pray FOR them. The official position of the Roman Catholic Church is that asking saints for their prayers is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. However, the practice of many Catholics diverges from official Roman Catholic teaching. Many Catholics do in fact pray directly to saints and/or Mary, asking them for help – instead of asking the saints and/or Mary to intercede with God for help. Whatever the case, whether a saint or Mary is being prayed to, or asked to pray, neither practice has any Biblical basis.
The Bible nowhere instructs believers in Christ to pray to anyone other than God. The Bible nowhere encourages, or even mentions, believers asking individuals in Heaven for their prayers. Why, then, do many Catholic pray to Mary and/or the saints, or request their prayers? Catholics view Mary and saints as "intercessors" before God. They believe that a saint, who is glorified in Heaven, has more "direct access" to God than we do. Therefore, if a saint delivers a prayer to God, it is more effective than us praying to God directly. This concept is blatantly unbiblical. Hebrews 4:16 tells us that we, believers here on earth, can "...approach the throne of grace with confidence..."
1 Timothy 2:5 declares, "For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus." There is no one else that can mediate with God for us. If Jesus is the ONLY mediator, that indicates Mary and saints cannot be mediators. They cannot mediate our prayer requests to God. Further, the Bible tells us that Jesus Christ Himself is interceding for us before the Father, "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He always lives to intercede for them" (Hebrews 7:25). With Jesus Himself interceding for us, why would we need Mary or the saints to intercede for us? Who would God listen to more closely than His Son? Romans 8:26-27 describes the Holy Spirit interceding for us. With the 2nd and 3rd members of the Trinity already interceding for us before the Father in Heaven, what possible need could there be to have Mary or the saints interceding for us?
Catholics argue that praying to Mary and the saints is no different than asking someone here on earth to pray for you. Let us examine that claim. (1) The Apostle Paul asks other Christians to pray for him in Ephesians 6:19. Many Scriptures describe believers praying for one another (2 Corinthians 1:11; Ephesians 1:16; Philippians 1:19; 2 Timothy 1:3). The Bible nowhere mentions anyone asking for someone in Heaven to pray for them. The Bible nowhere describes anyone in Heaven praying for anyone on earth. (2) The Bible gives absolutely no indication that Mary or the saints can hear our prayers. Mary and the saints are not omniscient. Even glorified in Heaven, they are still finite beings with limitations. How could they possibly hear the prayers of millions of people? Whenever the Bible mentions praying to or speaking with the dead, it is in the context of sorcery, witchcraft, necromancy, and divination - activities the Bible strongly condemns (Leviticus 20:27; Deuteronomy 18:10-13). The one instance when a "saint" is spoken to, Samuel in 1 Samuel 28:7-19, Samuel was not exactly happy to be disturbed. It is plainly clear that praying to Mary or the saints is completely different from asking someone here on earth to pray for you. One has a strong Biblical basis, the other has no Biblical basis whatsoever.
God does not answer prayers based on who is praying. God answers prayers based on whether they are asked according to His will (1 John 5:14-15). There is absolutely no basis or need to pray to anyone other than God alone. There is no basis for asking those who are in Heaven to pray for us. Only God can hear our prayers. Only God can answer our prayers. No one in Heaven has any greater access to God's throne that we do through prayer (Hebrews 4:16).
That's already been addressed: We don't "need" it.
Still I see threads on FR asking for prayers. I see Paul telling us to intercede for others, and asking others to intercede for him. Do you think Paul thought he "needed" the prayers of the Ephesians? Did he think God's arm was too short? Did he want something other than God's will to be done?
Isn’t God going to be insulted?
He was insulted at Calvary. He is insulted by every sin I commit. I put all my trust in His forgiveness, or, rather, I ask Him for the grace to do so more and more until one day He brings perfect trust from me.
Someone recently pointed out that the only scripture they deal with has to do with Mary, or they pretend that it has to do with Mary. Worth noting.
So since God has already been insulted, just carry on, is that it?
So you disapprove of asking others for prayer?
So since God has already been insulted, just carry on, is that it?
IF I am wrong, then I am insulting God. God knows what I have gone through to seek the grace of obedience and understanding. He has handled all our insults pretty well so far.
It might just be that I am not wrong, and that your side is insulting God. I am confident He can handle that too.
They would have to be to hear all the prayers that are being given in their names.
NO ONE IS OMNIPOTENT BUT GOD!!!!!!!!>
If it were true, it would be worth noting. It is not true, as a brief glance at a breviary or attendance at Mass would serve to demonstrate. So it is not worth noting.
No they wouldn't. At least I don't see how that would require omnipotence. I can see that it would require more power than I have, but there is plenty of space between me and omnipotence.
BTW, I addressed that quesiton in my first response to your post.
“1 Timothy 2:5 declares, ‘For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.’”
Exactly. It can’t be any clearer than that. That rules out priests as well.
There is only one mediator between man and God and that is Christ Jesus. You have turned the saints in heaven into little gods along with mary. You believe that they hold some special place in heaven to hear and whisper into the ear of God. This totally unbiblical. Read your bible and show me where it says that they can hear and answer prayer. Prayer is a form of worship and we are not to put any other gods in before the Lord God Almighty.
what do you consider an original source, the Pope?
Is it the "official" Protestant stand that anyone who is given the grace to be able to do something a Protestant can't currently do is thereby shown to be omnipotent and/or omniscient? Is there no distinction between greater power and all power or between greater knowledge and all knowledge? It seems as if you all have a scale which goes sort of like
Zero power (and then increments or amounts of power up to) the amount of power I have (and then with no interval at all) ALL power. I cannot otherwise make sense of the repetition of the false claim that we attribute omnipotence and omniscience to the saints in heaven.
what any believer knows about the Body of Christ is from Scripture
That's not clear. It's one point of view, a relatively recent one.
Jesus himself addresses the question of those who have died. And as I said, we have a fundamentally different concept of time from yours. You obviously mean your "kosher" question to be sort of rhetorically self-answering. That's fine. But I read it and think and go, "Yeah, that's kosher. Why not?"
Jesus is indeed Lord. The Lord is generous and gracious.
You believe that they hold some special place in heaven to hear and whisper into the ear of God.
If your comment was not meant to describe Lillabet but all Catholics, then maybe you should know I don't think God even HAS an ear. I certainly don't think saints whisper into it. (who could hear with all those hymns anyway?)(Well, yeah, God could.)
We have addressed many of the points you raise. Ignoring what we say and repeating the arguments doesn't move the argument along. Saying we believe what we don't believe doesn't move the argument along.
another commented on a similar statement i made & actually appeared understanding of my reaction. i do regret having said what i did to Lillla. i’m sorry if she was offended. yet i honestly saw similar tactics, not beliefs. its rather annoying to have someone twist your words [or to mistakenly perceive it] & pagans i have spoken to have done that.
i’m beginning to understand dennis prager’s debate philosophy. he prefers clarity over agreement.
protestants often disagree with catholics, but i hope we don’t hate each other & that we always be understanding & peaceful.
Then why do you need to go "ad hominem" instead of actually addressing the issues I've brought to the table?
On one hand you say I am lumping you all together, then you speak for everyone?
We have addressed many of the points you raise. Ignoring what we say and repeating the arguments doesn't move the argument along. Saying we believe what we don't believe doesn't move the argument along.
That, you would have to take up with God. I would not presume to answer, though I should point out most of what we rely on as uniquely Christian Scripture was not so critical until the Reformation made it the basis of their separation from the Traditional Church Hierarchy.
A recognized historical document from the approximate time period of the switch would do just fine.
Do you find anything unreasonable about that requirement?
Good. I'm glad to be wrong then.
From [a] previous post[s?] it is a know[n?] fact that some hold that saints in heaven have the ability to hear the prayers of the body of Christ and pass them onto God.
If there is a Catholic who thinks that saints can hear without the aid of Him who made the ear and hearing, if there is a Catholic who thinks that unless St. Anthony tells God I've lost my car keys again God doesn't know it, I'd like to meet the clown and (smack him around a little.) And of course I see you've cleaned up the charge a little. There's no more whispering. It's good for folks on both sides to understand the limits of analogy and metaphor.
Does Jesus have ears? Well, absent the testimony to the contrary of those in the upper room or the later 500, I'd guess He does. I'd bet, though, that he doesn't need them to know what someone has asked a saint in heaven to pray for.
I guess I thought that since you posted the article you'd be interested in all the subsequent discussion. Sorry for assuming. In any event I do know that I responded to you early on (#8) and that my response sketched out what I thought was the argumentative terrain and I think this is the first I've heard from you.
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