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An argument FOR Perpetual Virginity from Epiphanius of Salamis
Beggars All ^ | TUESDAY, AUGUST 26, 2008 | James Swan

Posted on 08/28/2008 9:21:36 AM PDT by Ottofire

An argument FOR Perpetual Virginity from Epiphanius of Salamis (1)

I finally had some time to closely work through the argumentation in favor of Mary's perpetual virginity from Epiphanius of Salamis (310/320-403). I'd like to present some of his arguments. With the one below, I'm not going to comment on it, but let it stand as it is. The argument though concludes, "the holy Virgin cannot have had marital relations."

12.1 But if we need to take the matter [Mary's perpetual virginity] up from another point of view, let's examine the findings of the naturalists. They say that a lioness never gives birth but once, for the following reason. A lion is a very fierce, grim of visage, of extremely violent strength, and, as it were, the king of beasts. (2) A lioness conceives by one male, but the implanted seed remains in the womb for a full twenty-six months. Thus the cub comes to maturity inside its mother because of the time, and already has all its teeth before it is born, and its claws fully developed, and, as they call them, its "incisors, eye-teeth and molars," and all the beast's remaining features. (3) Thus while it is in the belly it rakes it with its claws in the course of its upward and forward movements and its other twists, and scrapes the wombs and ovaries that are carrying it. And so, when the mother has come to birth,that very day her belly becomes incapable of labor. (4) For the naturalists say that the ovaries and wombs are expelled with the cub, so that the lioness no longer feels desire unless, perhaps, she is forced. And even if it should happen that she is forced to mate, she can never conceive again because she has no wombs or ovaries.

12.5 Now even this series of events has given me a notion, beneficial rather than harmful, on the subject in question. (6) If Jacob says, "Judah is a lion's whelp," as a symbol of Christ, somewhere in John's Revelation it says, "Behold, the lion of the tribe of Judah, and the seed of David,hath prevailed"—(when the Lord is compared to a lion it is not because of his nature, but symbolically, and because of the kingliness of the beast, bolder, strongest, and in all other respects the handsomest of the animals.) [If the Lord is a lion], then, I should call the mother who bare him a lioness; (7) how can any lion be born if the mother is not to be called a lioness? But a lioness does not conceive a second tine. Therefore Mary never conceives again; the holy Virgin cannot have had marital relations.


Frank Williams, trans., The Panarion of Epiphanius of Salamis: Book II and III, pp. 609-610.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Theology
KEYWORDS: mary; perpetualvirginity; tradition
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One of the sources of the tradition of Perpetual Virginity. Boy, that is some sound argumentation!
1 posted on 08/28/2008 9:21:36 AM PDT by Ottofire
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To: drstevej; OrthodoxPresbyterian; CCWoody; Wrigley; Gamecock; Jean Chauvin; jboot; AZhardliner; ...

GRPL PING!

Time to hang up the spurs on this issue. Those closer to the Apostles knew what they were talking about... *sigh*


2 posted on 08/28/2008 9:23:13 AM PDT by Ottofire (Philippians 1:21: For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain.)
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To: Ottofire

Ottofire! Good to see you around!


3 posted on 08/28/2008 9:23:31 AM PDT by Alex Murphy (What can I say? It's a gift. And I didn't get a receipt, so I can't exchange it.)
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To: Ottofire

This IS a joke, right?

12.1 is TOTALLY incorrect regarding lions:

Lionesses DO have more than one litter of cubs. The cub does NOT tear up its mother’s womb.

The gestation period of the lion is NO WHERE NEAR 26 MONTHS. It is, in fact, more like 26 weeks.

Lions are NOT born fully developed.


4 posted on 08/28/2008 9:27:57 AM PDT by WayneS (What the hell is wrong with these people?)
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To: Ottofire

I just don’t get the *weight* placed on perpetual Virginity. I have seen people go so far as to say that if after Christ had been Born Mary later had relations *with her husband* that she would have been a whore!

To me the Nature of Christ and the Gospel of Christ has Nothing to do with Mary. As special as she must have been in Gods eyes for him to use her as he did its still completely insignificant to Christ.


5 posted on 08/28/2008 9:27:59 AM PDT by N3WBI3 (Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari)
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To: N3WBI3

Amen!


6 posted on 08/28/2008 9:30:54 AM PDT by P8riot (I carry a gun because I can't carry a cop.)
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To: N3WBI3

“As special as she must have been in Gods eyes for him to use her as he did its still completely insignificant to Christ.”

And Mary is the first person to emphasize this fact — she never tried to take anything away from Christ’s glory to add to hers. Read the Magnificat, Luke 46...


7 posted on 08/28/2008 9:42:17 AM PDT by 353FMG (What marxism and fascism could not destroy, liberalism did.)
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To: Ottofire

Epiphany of the Salami!?


8 posted on 08/28/2008 9:43:41 AM PDT by outofsalt ("If History teaches us anything it's that history rarely teaches us anything")
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To: Ottofire

I have been trying to come up with a legitimate reason as to why I received a “Calvinist” apologetic and I can’t. I really have no interest in getting into debates with you people so I respectively ask that you take me off Calvinist Apolegetic pings.

I think my sig clearly designates what camp I am in.

Pax et bonum


9 posted on 08/28/2008 9:44:31 AM PDT by CTrent1564
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To: Ottofire

Sadly, many of the early church fathers were given to flights of allegorical fancy. See Origen. Sadder still that some of their ideas caught on and infected a large portion of the Church.


10 posted on 08/28/2008 9:45:46 AM PDT by topcat54 ("The selling of bad beer is a crime against Christian love.")
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To: Ottofire

That’s it??? That’s the whole deal??? Let me guess...This guy is a ‘church father’...


11 posted on 08/28/2008 9:52:49 AM PDT by Iscool (If Obama becomes the President, it will be an Obama-nation)
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To: Ottofire
Yah'shua said :

NAsbU Acts 20:29 "I know that after my departure
savage wolves will come in among you, not sparing the flock;

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai

12 posted on 08/28/2008 9:54:05 AM PDT by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 78:35 And they remembered that God was their ROCK, And the Most High God their Redeemer.)
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To: N3WBI3; Ottofire; topcat54
I just don't get the *weight* placed on perpetual Virginity. I have seen people go so far as to say that if after Christ had been Born Mary later had relations *with her husband* that she would have been a whore!

To me the Nature of Christ and the Gospel of Christ has Nothing to do with Mary. As special as she must have been in Gods eyes for him to use her as he did its still completely insignificant to Christ.

AMEN!

Many pagan heresies sprang up in the days of the early church. It was inevitable. But that doesn't mean we need to agree with them.

This concoction of "perpetual virginity" of Mary only mirrors the RCC's schizophrenic mentality when it comes to sexuality, and that old "virgin/whore" dichotomy.

Loving, compassionate human sexuality in a God-ordained marriage between a husband and wife is a gift from God to His family, and that includes Mary and Joseph. So much so, in fact, that Christ used the metaphor of the bride and bridegroom several times when teaching us of His church on earth.

13 posted on 08/28/2008 9:57:00 AM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg ("I don't think they want my respect; I think they want my submission." - Flemming Rose)
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To: CTrent1564
I have been trying to come up with a legitimate reason as to why I received a “Calvinist” apologetic and I can’t. I really have no interest in getting into debates with you people so I respectively ask that you take me off Calvinist Apolegetic pings.

i'm still, screen name aside, trying to figure out how i got on the list. i certainly never asked to be put on it. None the less, i don't mind, neither do i participate much.

Most likely, somebody 'cherry picked' various lists. Don't worry about it. Send freepmail to who ever pingged you to this discussion.

14 posted on 08/28/2008 9:59:45 AM PDT by Calvinist_Dark_Lord ((I have come here to kick @$$ and chew bubblegum...and I'm all outta bubblegum! ~Roddy Piper))
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To: Dr. Eckleburg

“This concoction of “perpetual virginity” of Mary only mirrors the RCC’s schizophrenic mentality when it comes to sexuality, and that old “virgin/whore” dichotomy.”

It seems as if some get more offended when you say something along the lines of ‘Maybe she was or maybe she was not’. There are reasons to think she *could* have abstained (the age difference between her and Joseph for one. But I just think this falls under interesting debate which has nothing to do with the Gospel.


15 posted on 08/28/2008 10:05:51 AM PDT by N3WBI3 (Ah, arrogance and stupidity all in the same package. How efficient of you. -- Londo Mollari)
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To: Ottofire; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; BnBlFlag; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...

I’ve known lots of teens

who’d have lots of reasons to argue for

perpetual and renewable virginity.

. . . all such being about as reasonable and reality based in the final analysis as this rubber-Bible, rubber-history based bunch of fantasy.


16 posted on 08/28/2008 10:38:10 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Ottofire; Alex Murphy; blue-duncan; BnBlFlag; Dr. Eckleburg; ears_to_hear; Forest Keeper; ...
I find the assertions

IN SCRIPTURE

about Christ's blood half-brothers and sisters

to be absolutely conclusive.

The absolute nonsense about the words meaning otherwise just do not fit the logic nor context of the text.

And silliness expecting folks XXX years later to speak more authoritatively and accurately than

GOD'S WORD

is another level of blasphemy, imho.

They are nothing but bureaucratic, power-mongering groping for yet another rationalized, fantasized pseudo-justification for elite ecclesiastical power over the serfs.

That anyone would think that God or the authentic Mary would be anything but outraged is incredible.

17 posted on 08/28/2008 10:42:05 AM PDT by Quix (key QUOTES POLS 1900 ON #76 http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2031425/posts?page=77#77)
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To: Quix
Thank you for sharing your insights, dear brother in Christ!
18 posted on 08/28/2008 10:53:23 AM PDT by Alamo-Girl
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To: xzins

Irony Alert


19 posted on 08/28/2008 10:55:18 AM PDT by BibChr ("...behold, they have rejected the word of the LORD, so what wisdom is in them?" [Jer. 8:9])
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To: Quix
I was raised Catholic, went to catechism, went to a Catholic school, was an alter boy.

I am very grateful that I was raised to believe Jesus died for my sins. This provided the foundation for my faith today.

This type of silly nonsense is just one of many reasons why I today reject Catholicism out of hand.

Whether one wants to call themselves a Catholic or not is irrelevant.

Are you saved?

Do you know Jesus?

Get off of the heretical traditions and stick to Gods Word.

20 posted on 08/28/2008 11:04:59 AM PDT by Manic_Episode (Some mornings, it's just not worth chewing through the leather straps...)
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