Posted on 08/23/2008 3:36:23 PM PDT by NYer
You wrote:
“You said it was the Catholic church. The church isn’t a label.”
How does that make it a building? Fess up, no one here EVER said THE CHURCH was a building, right? Also, your Protestant philosophy about the Church is NOT orthodox ecclesiology. The Church is THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.
“No, I’m quite visible as are those I worship with. We worship in a building thats also visible.”
So are you now claiming that you’re the one who said the Church is a building? Come on, make sense. You can’t have it both ways. You can’t say that the Church is all believers (when many believers believe VERY different things) and are thus united in an unseen, invisible church, but that your part of a visible church as if the two are one and the same. Make up your mind.
“Men apply their labels in an effort to make themselves believe they are better then others.”
No. Men apply labels to get to the truth. The use of categories is one of the most necessary things in order to discern truth.
You wrote:
“The problems with Muslims have existed for about 1000 years.”
No. The problem with Islam is almost 1400 years old.
“perhaps if you weren’t adding divisiveness to the issue it would be resolved.”
Recognizing reality IS NOT divisive. Are you going to pretend there is no problem between Buddhist beliefs (atheist) and Christianity? I don’t pretend. Problem are real. There’s no reason why we can’t talk about them. Nothing we discuss here is capable of causing any divisiveness between any major religious groups because they are already NECESSARILY divided. I am not interested in pretending. Perhaps you are.
“Wow talk about a victim mentality.”
Victim mentality? You asked: “What places are targeting Catholics for being catholic?” I answered. How does answering the question truthfully and accurately with 6 words mean I have a victim mentality? I suggest you stop using personal attacks and stick to the issues you yourself raise.
“Nobody cares about Catholics until you start this “we’re better than you are” garbage.”
And who is starting that? I never said anything about Catholics being better. I said Christ established the Catholic Church, and He did. That has nothing to do with anyone saying “we’re better than you are.”
If you can’t handle the debate like an adult, maybe you should engage in it.
“Cstho;ics have murdered tens of thousands in the name of God. They have very bloody hands.”
Absolutely. Many church leaders use peoples faith and desire to serve God for their own selfish agendas. The bible says these people will receive a harsh judgment for their actions.
To my knowledge the modern catholic church does not resort to violence anymore. I don’t see where the catholic church is a force for God in the world though.
The issues I have with the Catholics are:
1. individuals like those on this thread that seek to spread discord among Christians instead of spreading Gods word.
2. the idol worship
3. making the Pope a demi-god
4. requiring an intermediary for salvation
5. assigning a non-biblical importance to Mary and placing her on equal station to Jesus
6. the “I can do anything I want as long as I go to Mass” attitude of many Catholics I’ve known.
I’m sure I’ll get flamed now but I’m attempting to do this in a respectful way.
You wrote:
“Cstho;ics have murdered tens of thousands in the name of God. They have very bloody hands.”
I’m Catholic and my hands are spotless. What about the many thousands of Catholics murdered by Protestants in Ireland, Scotland, Northern Germany? I guess that would mean Protestants are covered in blood right?
Did you check under your nails?
‘The Church is THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.”
No, the Church is the body of people worshipping Jesus.
‘So are you now claiming that you’re the one who said the Church is a building? Come on, make sense. “
“You can’t say that the Church is all believers (when many believers believe VERY different things) and are thus united in an unseen, invisible church,”
The Bible says the Church is those that worship Jesus. I guess that would mean all believers although there are many false teachers out there. You are the one that introduced invisibility. Got super secret x-ray glasses or something?
Show me the word Catholic in the Bible. Its not there. Shame on you
“. Men apply labels to get to the truth. The use of categories is one of the most necessary things in order to discern truth.”
Men also apply labels to get to power, money, greed, or a misunderstood “Truth”.
Well, that blows up your premise right from the start...Peter was not the ROCK that Jesus built His church on...The verse doesn't say that...Faulty interpretation...
Who's next??? Hey, I'll go...My church was pre-ordained from the foundation of the world...The church that Jesus founded...The calling out of BELIEVERS...
You wrote:
“Did you check under your nails?”
Sorry, but the Black and Tans pulled mine out.
“And who is starting that? I never said anything about Catholics being better. I said Christ established the Catholic Church, and He did. That has nothing to do with anyone saying “we’re better than you are.””
In post 12 you said “Since Protestantism came 1500 years after Christ IT must be apostate Christianity.”
An apostate is a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.
Christ established the Church. The Church he created had nothing to do with a Pope, wax figurines of Mary, solid gold trappings or false teachings.
Now you're stealing the line from bible believing Protestants...
If you really believed this, you'd admit that there are Christians in every church and some not even in man made churches...
You forgot to add; THRU YOUR CHURCH...THRU YOUR CHURCH...
You wrote:
“No, the Church is the body of people worshipping Jesus.”
Nope. That was only in the first century when Christ first established the Church, the Catholic Church. After that, when sects like Protestants showed up, only the Catholic Church and not sectarian believers were in the Church.
“The Bible says the Church is those that worship Jesus.”
1) It says much more than that. 2) In the first century, when Christ first established the Church, the Catholic Church it was made up of all believers. After that, when sects like Protestants showed up, only the Catholic Church and not sectarian believers were in the Church.
“I guess that would mean all believers although there are many false teachers out there. You are the one that introduced invisibility.”
No, you introduced the flip side of it. I guess you don’t even know enough to know you did. Sheesh!
Here’s what you wrote: “Its the body of people that worship and accept Jesus as their savior.” That is part and parcel of the modernistic Protestant concept of the church that removes it from the reality of sectarianism.
“Got super secret x-ray glasses or something?”
No, common sense. You should try it sometime.
“Show me the word Catholic in the Bible.”
First, show me the word Bible in the Bible. How about Trinity? Where’s that in the Bible? Yeah, no where. Clearly we all believe in things that are not explicitly mentioned by name in the Bible. Deal with it.
“Its not there. Shame on you”
No, the shame is all yours. Again, where’s “Trinity” in the Bible?
“Men also apply labels to get to power, money, greed, or a misunderstood “Truth”.”
Maybe, but are you saying we should throw out all that is good because some people do bad? Please, make sense.
I looked up Troll and they have a link to your profile.
You wrote:
“In post 12 you said “Since Protestantism came 1500 years after Christ IT must be apostate Christianity.””
yes.
“An apostate is a person who forsakes his religion, cause, party, etc.”
And?
“Christ established the Church. The Church he created had nothing to do with a Pope, wax figurines of Mary, solid gold trappings or false teachings.”
Get real. The Church He established had nothing to do with altar calls, electric guitars, leather bound bibles, sola scriptura, sola fide, Protestant rebellion, schism, or apostasy.
You wrote:
“I looked up Troll and they have a link to your profile.”
Can’t be. That’s your mother’s picture there. She must be hard for you to recognize now that they shaved her back.
Where's the Pope? - Throughout the Acts of the Apostles, St. Peter is clearly the leader of the Christian community (Acts 1:15, 5:1-10). And again, he is listed first among the Apostles in the New Testament (Matthew 10:2; Mark 3:16-19; Luke 6:13-14). Before St. Peter was crucified, he appointed St. Linus as his successor. Why should this practice not be carried on to the present day? There is an unbroken line of Popes from St. Peter down to the present-day Pope. The Papacy is the oldest institution in the Western World. How could it have survived 2000 years without the grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit? The Primacy of Peter
Where’s the bible indicate you must go thru a priest to be forgiven? - John 20:22-23
Wheres the bible say good works get you to heaven? - James 2:14-26, Romans 2:6; 2 Corinthians 11:15; Matthew 25:31-46, Revelations, Revelations 22:12 - and others but the full clarification of the Catholic teaching on this topic is in the Catechism:
What the Catechism of the Catholic Church says on "Good Works:"
1821. "We can therefore hope in the glory of heaven promised by God to those who love him and do his will. [Cf. Rom 8:28-30 ; Mt 7:21 .] In every circumstance, each one of us should hope, with the grace of God, to persevere 'to the end' [Mt 10:22 ; cf. Council of Trent DS 1541.] and to obtain the joy of heaven, as God's eternal reward for the good works accomplished with the grace of Christ. In hope, the Church prays for 'all men to be saved.'[1 Tim 2:4 .] She longs to be united with Christ, her Bridegroom, in the glory of heaven: Hope, O my soul, hope. You know neither the day nor the hour. Watch carefully, for everything passes quickly, even though your impatience makes doubtful what is certain, and turns a very short time into a long one. Dream that the more you struggle, the more you prove the love that you bear your God, and the more you will rejoice one day with your Beloved, in a happiness and rapture that can never end. [St. Teresa of Avila, Excl. 15:3.]"
2008. "The merit of man before God in the Christian life arises from the fact that God has freely chosen to associate man with the work of his grace. The fatherly action of God is first on his own initiative, and then follows man's free acting through his collaboration, so that the merit of good works is to be attributed in the first place to the grace of God, then to the faithful. Man's merit, moreover, itself is due to God, for his good actions proceed in Christ, from the predispositions and assistance given by the Holy Spirit."
2009. "Filial adoption, in making us partakers by grace in the divine nature, can bestow true merit on us as a result of God's gratuitous justice. This is our right by grace, the full right of love, making us 'co-heirs' with Christ and worthy of obtaining 'the promised inheritance of eternal life.' [Council of Trent (1547): DS 1546.] The merits of our good works are gifts of the divine goodness. [Cf. Council of Trent (1547): DS 1548.] 'Grace has gone before us; now we are given what is due.... Our merits are God's gifts.' [St. Augustine, Sermon 298, 4-5: PL 38, 1367.]"
Where in Scripture is Sola Scriptura found?
“Get real. The Church He established had nothing to do with altar calls, electric guitars, leather bound bibles, sola scriptura, sola fide, Protestant rebellion, schism, or apostasy.”
You get real, you accused non-Catholic Christians of being apostates and then claimed not to be judging Protestants. That makes you dishonest hence my last post calling you a troll. Strawmans and arguing in circles is not debate.
The church he created did have a lot to do with joy in worship. The things many protestants do are to bring joy to people and help to support the Great Commission of spreading his word to non-believers. As long as it is Biblical (aka the Word) then its is within the bounds of Gods law.
“How could it have survived 2000 years without the grace of God and the guidance of the Holy Spirit?”
Satan still exists so your argument is invalid. (I’m not comparing Catholics to Satan just the argument.)
“Can’t be. That’s your mother’s picture there. She must be hard for you to recognize now that they shaved her back.”
Yes that confirms it. You can’t even apologize for calling all non-catholics apostate and then you insult my mother. You are slime and if you are indicative of what Catholics are then you do far more to drive people away from salvation.
Faulty belief in private interpretation of the Bible which is not condoned in the Bible Itself.
You might be interested in this although I don’t expect you to agree with it.
http://www.carm.org/catholic/peter.htm
Is Peter the rock on which the Church is built?
“For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ,” (1 Cor. 3:11).
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