Posted on 08/18/2008 7:48:05 PM PDT by guitarplayer1953
Where do you stand on this pre trib, mid trib or post trib and why.
Amillenial, partial-preterist, but open to historic premil* and postmil.
*Not to be confused with Dispy Premil as seen in LaHay/Hagee et al.
Sixty years have past since then and I think Christ Second Coming will happen while at least one person {Jewish} is still alive and was living to witness this event. That still doesn't mark the date but gives us a clue so to speak. Only a few men involved in that act may have actually understood the Biblical significance possibly Churchill for example.
The technology explosion since that time both in communication and travel is also prophetic in nature. Even the translations of ancient writings of the various times in the Bible are now better understood. Up till the last decade or so some prophecies were not possible or seemed such. For example today even this hour the nations of the world can indeed all at the same time witness live the events taking place in the streets of Jerusalem.
We are again at a major place. Man was banned from Eden before he could eat from the tree of life. Man's languages at Babel were confused when man's knowledge was growing at an alarming rate. Had it not happened it was possible the technology of today may have happened before Christ was born. GOD had a plan of salvation for man and stopped the expansion for our sakes.
Today we have surpassed The Tower of Babel by leaps and bounds as far as knowledge, technology, travel and communication. GOD has allowed it as it must be so for GOD's plan of salvation for man to happen. The Gospel thanks to this technology has now been preached to all nations of the world. The next prophetic event? Either the rapture or the Treaty of the anti-christ and the tribulations to follow. I don't think it will be much longer. By GOD's grace no mad man yet has pushed the nuclear button even though enough exist to destroy this old world several times over. Even the events of the past two weeks in Russia are the birth pains so to speak and not just accidents.
For the sake of His chosen as told in the Bible GOD will step in. From the events of this age it looks like much sooner rather than later. But Christ also tells us "Let not your hearts be troubled." As believers we have hope in His Word and peace which surpasses mans understanding.
I think some including Daniel and the last one John got literal visions of the events of this age. Taking a man from even the late 1800's and showing him todays world would be mind blowing. How much more so a man from 2000 years ago exiled to an island and given a vision from GOD of the events of today? What words could a man use to describe it? Even a few men in the Old testament I think were shown it. Up till this past century mankind had not progressed all that much in the thousands of years of his time on earth. In a few short years knowledge, communication, and travel, became much more prevailent than all the other years combined in mans history combined.
I agree 100%. Well phrased.
I can hope it will be pre-trib, but I prepare for it to be post-trib.
A pastor I once had used to say that if God let the last generation escape the tribulation, he’d have a lot of explaining to do for the martyred saints of the past 2,000 years.
Of course, God doesn’t have to explain himself to anyone, but the statement made a great point, IMO.
Post trib ... since the “great tribulation” of Matthew 24 occured in AD70, and Jesus’ bodily return (the Second Coming) is still in the future, historically speaking we know that post trib is therefore the view of Scripture.
That's the way the scriptures were written...God didn't write the bible like a cookbook...He wants us to study and search, and find...And many of us do...
God did the same thing with the Trinity...That's why it took the Catholic church 400 years to find it...In fact, God does that with most all prophecy in the scripture...Everything fits together, but He makes you hunt for the pieces to see it...
>>I can think of about 1000 better things to discuss, beginning with a debate about toe jam. <<
Yeah, I feel that way about a lot of threads.
That is why I don’t post on them. I leave them to the people that ARE interested in the subject.
“Pre trib. Revelation 3:10 and Luke 21:36 do it for me, but you’ve probably opened a can of worms.”
YAY, WORMS! ;)
I'll answer...Pick me...Pick me...
No they are not...Because the espoused (2Co 11:2) Bride is in Heaven during the Tribulation getting married...These folks will be 'friends' of the Bride/Groom as spoken of in many places in the parables of the Gospels...
I’m what many people call Mid-Trib, but what this guy calls Post-trib or, to be more precise, “post-trib and pre-wrath”:
http://watchmanbiblestudy.com/BibleStudies/Definitions/Def_Pretrib.htm
He makes some VERY good arguments.
I used to be pre-trib but changed in the late 1980’s as I continued studying. To be brief, the pre-trib position tends to see Johns being caught into heaven in Revelation 4 as referring to the whole church being caught up into heaven. To say that is a logical stretch is a gross understatement. Meanwhile, Mid-tribulationists tend to look to the “countless” people mentioned in Revelation 7 as the “result” of the rapture. It happens after the tribulation but just before God’s wrath begins.
Compare Matt 24:37-41 and Revelation 14:14-20 where the good ones were taken away. It is probably two different events. Which one comes first?
Seven
Sometimes it's useful to remind folks of what St. Paul said in 1 Timothy:
... nor to devote themselves to myths and endless genealogies, which promote speculations rather than the stewardship from God that is by faith. The aim of our charge is love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith. Certain persons, by swerving from these, have wandered away into vain discussion, desiring to be teachers of the law, without understanding either what they are saying or the things about which they make confident assertions. (1 Tim. 1:4-7)
This whole pre- post- mid- nitwittery is precisely the sort of "vain discussion" Paul warns against. It has nothing to do with "love that issues from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith."
Oh, is that what that means?
I thought a pan-millenialist was someone who peddled non-stick cookware with a "miracle 1000-year finish!"
Pick me again...
Correct...The Holy Spirit is the seal of the promise...Those folks in the Tribulation have no seal of the promise...That's why THEY must ENDURE to the END...THE END OF THE TRIBULATION...
Yeah, I’m quite aware of that verse. I used to make that same argument. However, this really depends on the heart of the person studying it. If you are just trying to browbeat people into your take on things, that is one thing. If you are studying His word to learn what He says, and willing to let the chips fall where they may - all in a spirit of love - well, that is entirely different.
It is all about “why”. Come to think of it, EVERYTHING is about “why”.
Or maybe it happen in 1967...Six day war...Remember one day is as a thousnd years to the Lord...That takes care of the millenium, eh???
Problem with your theory is that you have to turn a whole lot of scripture into garbled mush to make it so...
Therefore, the Tribulation hasn't happen yet...It's a nice thought tho...
Theology is all very well -- it's important, and sometimes it's good fun. But when topics like this end up causing folks to split off and start their own, "correct" churches, and to excoriate those who don't agree ... at that point, it's clear that those folks are no longer "receiving the kingdom of God like a child."
One need only read the Gospels straight-up to understand that, when all is said and done, God isn't going to judge us based on which "trib" we are.
No one saw Jesus leave, other than His disciples...
I just read 2Thess. 1...I didn't see anything that resembles what you just said...Would you care to point to the verse???
I am Post-trib. Read the Bible without changing the order of the verses and read Revelation as a whole and noticed a part of a verse that is never talked about in chapter 20.
“4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.”
Read what is in parenthesis (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the 1000 yrs were ended)
Folks, that is the first resurrection. After the tribulation, not before. Therefore, Jesus does not return to gather up the people who are called to give up everything and be willing to die for their faith. He never promises to take us out of harms way, but to walk with us as we are tortured, spit on, laughed at, ridiculed, etc, etc. The same way He lived, we are to live. Not as Kings, as servants, slaves. We rule later. It will be beyond description. The peace, the joy, the LIFE. Its coming faster than I ever imagined and I might just live (or die) to see it. My hope is in Jerusalem, the city of the GREAT KING. Want to join us? Be willing to be beheaded. Not such a strange occurrence these days.
Oh, but its really wonderful to think about Jesus’ ruling the world. I enjoy it.
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