Posted on 08/07/2008 8:57:37 AM PDT by francke
The New York Times ran a feature story on July 6th, 2008 about the discovery of a stone tablet found near the Dead Sea in Jordan that apparently contains some reference to a “Prince of Princes” (ie. The Jewish Messiah) who would be slain and rise from the dead after three days. (Tablet Ignites Debate on Messiah and Resurrection”, July 6, 2008)
The essence of the article and the opinion of the scholars quoted is that somehow, the credibility of Christianity is at stake, on the grounds that this pre-Christian inscription, also known in scholastic circles as “Gabriel’s Revelation”, robs Christianity of its “uniqueness” and novelty.
(Excerpt) Read more at letsaskgod.com ...
A truly weird take. If I placed a bet that the Giants would win last year's Superbowl, after they won, could the Bookie fail to pay on the grounds that the bet was part of the Football Betting Tradition, and actually proof that the Giants didn't win the Superbowl? I don't think so.
Rather, this is another indication that Jesus was the expected Messiah, and that the Jews (a stiff necked people) are mistaken in rejecting him.
After 2000 years of arguing that Jesus as Messiah was against Jewsih tradition, and therefor false, Knowl now wants to argue that the Mesiah as prince of peace, is part of Jewish tradition, therefor the claim for Jesus is false. Talk about wanting to have it both ways!
Uh.....
You know that Caesar Augustus is NOT Julius Caesar, right? (In fact, CA was JC's grandnephew)
Apples and oranges. Nobody in ancient times wrote biographies about the Greek gods, purporting that these being actually walked and talked and interacted with people on the earth in an historical setting. The Olympian myths - as acknowledged by their own believers - existed outside of true, experiential time.
Religious stories are always more suspect than secular ones because they are compiled by people with the lowest possible documentary standard, faith.
Not according to actual historians, who acknowledge that the NT documents are actually superb examples (especially Luke's writings) of classical historical work.
Let me guess - you have as many credentials in history and allied scholarly fields as you do in science, right (which is to say, none)?
Buy yourself a Julius Carsar coin
Facts. All you have on your side are facts.
A story about God impregnating a woman.
Zeus fell in love with a beautiful Greek woman named Alcmene [Alk-ME-ne]. When Alcmene’s husband, Amphitryon, was away, Zeus made her pregnant. This made Hera so angry that she tried to prevent the baby from being born. When Alcmene gave birth to the baby anyway, she named him Herakles. (The Romans pronounced the name “Hercules,” and so do we today.) The name Herakles means “glorious gift of Hera” in Greek, and that got Hera angrier still. Then she tried to kill the baby by sending snakes into his crib. But little Hercules was one strong baby, and he strangled the snakes, one in each hand, before they could bite him.
Hera remained angry. How could she get even? Hera knew that she would lose in a fight, and that she wasn’t powerful enough to prevent Zeus from having his way. Hera decided to pay Zeus back for his infidelity by making the rest of Hercules’ life as miserable as she could.
Eurystheus and the 12 Labors
When Hercules grew up and had become a great warrior, he married Megara. They had two children. Hercules and Megara were very happy, but life didn’t turn out for them the way it does in the movie. Hera sent a fit of madness to Hercules that put him into so great a rage, he murdered Megara and the children.
When Hercules regained his senses and saw the horrible thing that he had done, he asked the god Apollo to rid him of this pollution. Apollo commanded the hero to do certain tasks as a punishment for his wrongs, so that the evil might be cleansed from his spirit.
Apollo had many divine responsibilities. As Phoebus, he was the sun god, and every day he drove the chariot of the sun across the sky. He was the god of healing and music. Finally, Apollo was a god of prophecy: the Greeks believed that Apollo knew what would happen in the future, and that he could advise people how to act.
Hercules hurried to the temple where Apollo gave such advice. It was in the town of Delphi and was called the Delphic oracle. Apollo said that in order to purify himself for the spilling of his family’s blood, he had to perform 10 heroic labors (this number would soon be increased to 12).
Hercules got even more bad news. Apollo declared that he had to go to the city of Tiryns. The king of Tiryns was Eurystheus [You-RISS-theus]. Eurystheus had a reputation for being mean, and Hercules knew that the king would give him a tough time. The hero had to serve Eurystheus for twelve years while he performed the Labors. There was some good news, though. When the tasks were completed, Apollo said, Hercules would become immortal. Unlike other men, instead of dying and going to the Underworld of Hades, he would become a god.
You might want to explore the 12 Labors of Hercules, at this point, or you can continue to read about his life. Most of the pictures of Hercules shown at this web site were painted by the Greeks on vases around 2200 to 2500 years ago. Notice that Hercules wears a lion’s skin, the prize from his first Labor, and wields a huge club.
Further Adventures of Hercules
After he completed the 12 Labors, Hercules didn’t just sit back and rest on his laurels. He had many more adventures. One was to rescue the princess of Troy from a hungry sea-monster. Another was to help Zeus defeat the Giants in a great battle for the control of Olympus. You might want to read these other stories about Hercules now, or continue with the hero’s biography, below.
Hercules on the Pyre
Hercules got married a second time, to the beautiful Deianira [Day-an-EE-ra]. When Hercules was returning from his last adventure, Deianira gave him a welcome-home present. This was a cloak which she had woven herself. Deianira had a magic balm which a centaur had given to her. The centaur told Deianira that anyone who put on the balm would love her forever. But actually the balm contained a caustic poison. This balm she now smeared into the cloak.
When Hercules received the cloak and tried it on, his body immediately began to burn with excruciating pain. He tried to pull the cloak off, but the pain burned even harder and deeper. Death, thought Hercules, would be better than unendurable pain. Bellowing in agony, he asked his friends to build a huge pile of wood on the top of Mount Oeta. This would be Hercules’ funeral pyre. He laid himself upon the pyre, and told his friends to light it. As the fire began to burn Hercules alive, the great gods looked down from Olympus. Zeus said to Hera that Hercules had suffered enough. Hera agreed and ended her anger. Zeus sent Athena to take Hercules from the pyre, and she brought Hercules to Olympus on her chariot.
The Greeks believed in Hercules as much as you do Jesus.
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/Herakles/bio.html
Or so say those of your faith.
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On most threads, that would not be a handicap.
That isn’t earlier.
And, without exception, they all lisp...
We see this every day. You'll never see the New York Times run an article questioning the status of Mohammed. You'll never see some hippie leftist smirk that the Chinese are helping to modernize Tibet by bouncing the Dalai Lama and his “superstition” out of there. You'll never see Dan Brown or Ron Howard produce a book or film questioning the truth of Islam and the Koran.
The left really zeroes in to destroy anything that's true, and their hostility to Christianity in quite telling.
Osiris was not only the redeemer and merciful judge of the dead in the afterlife, but also the underworld agency that granted all life, including sprouting vegetation and the fertile flooding of the Nile River. The Kings of Egypt were associated with Osiris in death — as Osiris rose from the dead they would, in union with him, inherit eternal life through a process of imitative magic.
Osiris (Greek language, also Usiris; the Egyptian language name is variously transliterated Asar, Aser, Ausar, Ausir, Wesir, or Ausare) was the Egyptian god of life, death, and fertility.
Osiris is one of the oldest gods for whom records have been found; one of the oldest known attestations of his name is on the Palermo Stone of around 2500 BC. He was widely worshipped until the suppression of paganism by the early Catholic church under Theodosius I[1]. The information we have on the myths of Osiris is derived from allusions contained in the Pyramid Texts (ca. 2400 BC), later New Kingdom source documents such as the Shabaka Stone and the Contending of Horus and Seth, and much later, in narrative style from the writings of Greek authors including Plutarch[2] and Diodorus Siculus.[3]
You are certainly free to believe what you wish. I’m not here to convert you or anyone else. In fact, my Christianity teaches me that I cannot do so, that has to be done thru conviction by the Holy Spirit. God bless you and I will do the one thing I can do. Pray for you.
susie
Thank you Susie.
You are quite welcome. :)
susie
That’s what I was thinking.
Really? Which source would that be? I am a amateur student of early Christianity and am versed in the "Quelle" hypothesis regarding a source distinct from Mark for the Luke/Mathew similarities not within the aforementioned. Additionally, would you like to amend your opinion and include Thomas, as well?
I'm curious as to your motivation, since it doesn't seem to be for the sake of Truth. You would have to admit that strictly speaking, you have jumped all over this thread to counter various responses to your statements. And despite your thoroughness, there is a disconcerting frivolousness within your post's (when weighed against the earnestness of those with faith) that belies your sincerity ("John was was smoking rope"). I'm not intending this to be personal: I have a genuine curiosity as to the root inspiration for deconstructionist's profaning of the sacred. In short, what's in it for you? I doubt I'd be the only Freeper who'd like to hear the explanation.
Thanks. H
The Synoptic Problem
Matthew, Mark, and Luke are called the Synoptic Gospels. The double tradition is the term for the material common to Matthew and Luke. The triple tradition is the term for the material found in all three synoptic Gospels: Matthew, Mark, and Luke. The extent of agreement in wording and order in the triple tradition is so great as to demand an explanation of literary interdependence among all three Gospels. The synoptic problem poses the question: which evangelist used which Gospel?
There are four answers to the synoptic problem that have commended themselves in recent years.
1. The Two-Source Hypothesis
Mark wrote first. Matthew and Luke independently used both Mark and a document termed Q.
2. The Farrer-Goulder Hypothesis
Mark wrote first. Matthew used Mark, while Luke used both Mark and Matthew.
3. The Griesbach-Farmer Hypothesis
Matthew wrote first. Luke used Matthew, while Mark used both Matthew and Luke.
4. The Augustinian-Butler Hypothesis
Matthew wrote first. Mark used Matthew, while Luke used both Matthew and Mark.
The first two solutions share the trait called Markan priority, that is, the idea that Mark was the first of the synoptics. Markan priority itself is compatible with the Two-Source Hypothesis and with the Farrer-Goulder Hypothesis. The last two solutions are examples of Matthean priority. Lukan priority is rarely supposed. The purpose of this essay is to argue for Markan priority.
http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/mark-prior.html
Bah! They're probably just forged by a bunch of Caesarists anywise!
Seriously though, I guess you didn't happen to read all the way through my post #56 (which wouldn't surprise me) where I mentioned that there are a few coins with GJC's image and title on them, did you?
Of course, you're the guy who thinks that Julius Caesar and Caesar Augustus are the same person....
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