Posted on 07/11/2008 5:54:33 AM PDT by Between the Lines
Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.
Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.
In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II’s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.
It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”
In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy’s Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.
“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
>> well done, dangus. <<
Thanks, but not so well done:
>> the Protestant notion that there exists some sort of invisible assembly which includes a Christian in an Anglican pew to a Christian in a Baptist true more than truly that to the Episcopagan next to him. <<
should be:
>> the Protestant notion that there exists some sort of invisible assembly which includes a Christian in an Anglican pew to a Christian in a Baptist church more truly than to the Episcopagan next to him. <<
:^)
Then you say that Rome repeatedly tried to bring itself back into communion with Orthodoxy only to be rebuffed? I don’t seem to recall all those efforts. In fact, Rome had been separating itself from the rest of Christendom for some centuries before the schism occurred. The excommunication you talk about only formalized it.
To my understanding, he called them “Churches”, which means that they are apostolic with valid orders and Sacraments.
Freegards
Not true. The relevant text from Dominus Iesus:
Therefore, there exists a single Church of Christ, which subsists in the Catholic Church, governed by the Successor of Peter and by the Bishops in communion with him. The Churches which, while not existing in perfect communion with the Catholic Church, remain united to her by means of the closest bonds, that is, by apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist, are true particular Churches. Therefore, the Church of Christ is present and operative also in these Churches, even though they lack full communion with the Catholic Church, since they do not accept the Catholic doctrine of the Primacy, which, according to the will of God, the Bishop of Rome objectively has and exercises over the entire Church.The Orthodox are among those counted as true particular Churches possessing apostolic succession and a valid Eucharist.On the other hand, the ecclesial communities which have not preserved the valid Episcopate and the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic mystery, are not Churches in the proper sense; however, those who are baptized in these communities are, by Baptism, incorporated in Christ and thus are in a certain communion, albeit imperfect, with the Church. Baptism in fact tends per se toward the full development of life in Christ, through the integral profession of faith, the Eucharist, and full communion in the Church.
You wrote:
“My own church gets around the concept by claiming they are a recreation of the First Century church in Jerusalem.”
Gets around? If God made it, you wouldn’t feel the need to get around anythng.
You wrote:
“The Pope needs to read the Bible.”
He has. He knows it well.
You wrote:
“However, on this issue, the Catholic Church remains rooted in the 4th century A.D.”
Actually, on this issue, the Catholic Church is rooted in the first century - Pentecost to be exact.
Try the Council of Florence. Rome has always sought union with the east. What she has been unwilling to do is abandon the beliefs that she has held since apostolic times. Argue, as other Orthodox here do, that these beliefs are wrong but let us recognize the desire for unity on the part of Rome, if only on her own terms (just as the Orthodox seek it on their terms).
In fact, Rome had been separating itself from the rest of Christendom for some centuries before the schism occurred. The excommunication you talk about only formalized it.
This was not the opinion of the bishops in the east that maintained union during all those centuries.
You wrote:
“In fact, Rome had been separating itself from the rest of Christendom for some centuries before the schism occurred.”
Non-Catholics have left the communion of the Church - not the other way around.
It may not have been their opinion, but it is a historical fact. Just because the rest of Christendom tried to keep Rome from removing itself doesn’t mean they weren’t aware of the western efforts in that direction.
There is nothing that requires membership in any particular church or that there is no salvation outside any particular church.
You wrote:
“As an Orthodox Christian, I have to say that I find this offensive. The Catholic Church removed itself from apostolic succession in 1054 when it decided to remove itself from communion with the rest of Christendom.”
Nonsense. First, Eastern Orthodoxy was no more the entirety of Christendom than Protestantism was. Second, Christendom is about Christian influenced politics, culture, etc. It is NOT about spiritual communion through the bishops and sacraments. You are conflating two related but different ideas.
“If you’re concerned about apostolic succession, Orthodoxy is the only communion that has a true claim to it. Sorry Catholics, that’s just the way it is.”
Again, nonsense and even most Eastern Orthodox bishops admit it. There may be some eastern bishops who say that there is no aostolic succssion among Catholics, but they are definitely a minority at best.
Sorry, most of your own bishops don’t support you. You may be out of communion with them. How ironic.
And which ecumenical council declared the teachings of Rome to be heretical? By your own ecclesiology until such an event all we can have is a theological dispute, not a rupture of the Church.
You wrote:
“There is nothing that requires membership in any particular church or that there is no salvation outside any particular church.”
Christ died to forgive our sins and found the Church that would carry that forgiveness to us in later generations. Only a Protestant - who is his own church and pope - would think he could thumb his nose at Christ’s creation and yet imagine it doesn’t matter.
:)
I was trying to be generous and give them credit for a modicum of modernization.
Quick, someone who remembers the title of the other thread, grab it and cut and paste it here and be done with it.
It is like that sore in their mouth that they can’t help but irritate with their tongue. It obviously causes them pain but they can’t leave it alone even though it just makes the pain worse and the healing slower.
That is what is so hilarious. Non-Catholics make the most horrendous charges against the Catholic Church and then whine about this. It just shows how those logs can obscure their vision.
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