Posted on 07/11/2008 5:54:33 AM PDT by Between the Lines
Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.
Benedict approved a document from his old offices at the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith that restates church teaching on relations with other Christians. It was the second time in a week the pope has corrected what he says are erroneous interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, the 1962-65 meetings that modernized the church.
Benedict, who attended Vatican II as a young theologian, has long complained about what he considers the erroneous interpretation of the council by liberals, saying it was not a break from the past but rather a renewal of church tradition.
In the latest document — formulated as five questions and answers — the Vatican seeks to set the record straight on Vatican II’s ecumenical intent, saying some contemporary theological interpretation had been “erroneous or ambiguous” and had prompted confusion and doubt.
It restates key sections of a 2000 document the pope wrote when he was prefect of the congregation, “Dominus Iesus,” which set off a firestorm of criticism among Protestant and other Christian denominations because it said they were not true churches but merely ecclesial communities and therefore did not have the “means of salvation.”
In the new document and an accompanying commentary, which were released as the pope vacations here in Italy’s Dolomite mountains, the Vatican repeated that position.
“Christ ‘established here on earth’ only one church,” the document said. The other communities “cannot be called ‘churches’ in the proper sense” because they do not have apostolic succession — the ability to trace their bishops back to Christ’s original apostles.
(Excerpt) Read more at msnbc.msn.com ...
"What, is the Holy See trying to bribe converts by giving out ugly automobiles now?"LOL!
***¶ If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true.
John 5:31
And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.
Matthew 3:17
Christ said that if he were to bear witness of himself, his witness would not be true.
The Catholic Church bears witness of itself.***
The posts from the non Catholic are getting funnier all the time.
Jesus Christ gives the authority to the Church. If you do not accept the authority of the Church, then logically you cannot accept the Church’s documents, which include the Bible. Address 1 Tim 3 if you would please.
***What profit is there for a man who is condemned to hell to walk where Jesus Christ walked?
None!***
Interesting. I thought that the man who is condemned to hell is sent there immediately. While it is true that Jesus did descend to hell, I don’t think that you are posting this as a reference to walking in hell. Or is it? Could you clear this up please?
***The RCC has so mangled the Scriptures by adding to them such perverse doctrines as infallible popes and prayers to dead people and the alchemy of transubstantion that it has shown itself to be very far from the church instituted and guided by Jesus Christ.***
Substitute ‘the Apostles’ for ‘RCC’ and you have the gist of the separation of the Reformation from Jesus Christ.
***”...Simply stated, the Catholic priest is another Christ. Through his ordination he has been granted the amazing gift of being a channel of divine grace for the eternal salvation of those he come into contact with — both in his official ministry and in his personal life...” ***
In the place of - a steward awaiting the return of the King. I guess that the Apostles were wrong by Reformation standards here, too.
***What, is the Holy See trying to bribe converts by giving out ugly automobiles now?***
:)
Careful though. Fiat owns CASE New Holland and a whole bunch of our food runs through their machines. Don’t make ‘em mad.
The apostles did not teach what the RCC teaches.
A steward is not "another Christ." A steward is one who faithfully preaches what Christ has done for us on the cross.
One God, one Christ, one mediator should be enough for anyone.
"the steward of God...Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers." -- Titus 1:7,9
"Jesus Christ gives the authority to the Church. If you do not accept the authority of the Church, then logically you cannot accept the Church’s documents, which include the Bible."
"I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so." --MarkBsnr's tagline
"Interesting. I thought that the man who is condemned to hell is sent there immediately. While it is true that Jesus did descend to hell, I don’t think that you are posting this as a reference to walking in hell. Or is it? Could you clear this up please?"Strawman.
"Jesus said to His Apostles, as He gathered them to follow Him. He was there physically."So what!
He said come unto me, not come unto the church that claims to be my church.Come unto me, all [ye] that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
For my yoke [is] easy, and my burden is light.
Matthew 11:28-30 (Jesus speaking)
That would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to reaffirm the church that you claim he ordained.Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
FALSE
A strange claim, given that the Catholic Church was founded by Christ circa AD 32.
***The apostles did not teach what the RCC teaches.***
What is the RCC?
The Catholic Church is the Church of Christ and the recipient of their traditions, as Scripturally mandated. Unlike the Protestants, we take our mandate seriously and we do not get to make it all up as we go along.
***Contrary to the blasphemous teaching of the RCC, priests are not “another Christ.”***
What is the RCC?
We teach that the priest stands in as the physical hands of Christ, the same as the Apostles baptized and performed all the offices of the early Church. Authorized by Jesus and the Holy Spirit. Which spirit authorized the Reformation and the construction of untold thousands of different theologies? A bright one, I’m sure.
***”Jesus Christ gives the authority to the Church. If you do not accept the authority of the Church, then logically you cannot accept the Church’s documents, which include the Bible.”
“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” —MarkBsnr’s tagline
So the church gets it authority from the bible, and the bible gets its authority from the church.
Sorry, circular reasoning does not cut the mustard either.***
I’ll have to try with words of one syllable, I guess.
Christ made the Church; the Church made the Book. No circle. A line, as it were. First Christ, then the Church, then the Book. I am sorry if you did not get it the first time.
***Strawman.
When I wrote condemned I meant hell bound, something that was plainly obvious.***
Nope, not a strawman. I was asking for clarification on your part. Would you care to comply? Or would you curtly cut the conversation?
***You said:
“Jesus said to His Apostles, as He gathered them to follow Him. He was there physically.”
So what!
His commands to follow me and come unto me are very similar and are not exclusive to physical presence.
(If Jesus said to a sinner, follow me, and the sinner only physically followed him around, the sinner is still hell bound.)***
Are you saying that you see Jesus and are physically following Him around?
***He said come unto me, not come unto the church that claims to be my church.***
Dates, timeline. Did the Church exist at this moment? No. It was commissioned at Pentecost.
***If the RCC was ordained by Christ, why didn’t he speak of it extensively?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
That would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to reaffirm the church that you claim he ordained.
Why didn’t he?***
What is the RCC?
Jesus did refer to the Church. Is it missing from your truncated Bible?
Matt 5:
18
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 14
20
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21
15 16 “You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’
22
17 But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
23
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,
24
leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
26
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
I suppose that the Catholic Church teachings on Purgatory, Biblically based as they are, are also truncated from your Bible.
***Are not most of the recorded words of Christ related to Salvation?
Why is there a glaring lack of references to the RCC?
Try harder, your arguments are not convincing.***
What is the RCC?
Most of the words of Christ relate to our conduct and the consequences of acting as Pharisees and religious bigots and merchants of theological death.
Matt 16:
24
19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me.
25
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21
26
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27
22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
The conduct of many who believe themselves saved is reprehensible and repugnant.
Let examine some Bible verses which address the self righteous and the theologically arrogant.
If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words…. (John 14:23-24)
Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezek 18:24)
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)
If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. (Ezek 33:1
But each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20, NASB)
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death. (John 8:51)
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)
Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. (Luke 8:6)
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Rev 2:10,11)
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. (Luke 15:32)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Rev 21:
Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.” (Luke 9:23-26)
But unless you repent, you too will all perish. (Luke 13:3)
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:22)
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.” (Luke 13:23, 24)
with thanks to http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/once-saved-always-saved-doctrine-can-land-you-in-a-place-called-hell/
If you make up your own theology and do not follow the Church of Jesus, then you must answer for it, not to me, nor to the Pope or to any man.
Hello Petronski;
A nice evening for circling the myriad theologies of death devouring each other and all of them diminishing.
Kinda reminds me of viewing the circles of hell envisioned by Dante and watching them diminish towards the center with the devil waiting in anguish and despair.
I suppose that he is drawing his sycophants. We must do what we can to reverse that.
"Christ made the Church; the Church made the Book. No circle. A line, as it were. First Christ, then the Church, then the Book. I am sorry if you did not get it the first time."They have no witness.
"Nope, not a strawman. I was asking for clarification on your part. Would you care to comply? Or would you curtly cut the conversation?"I did clarify.
"Are you saying that you see Jesus and are physically following Him around?"No, you misunderstand.
"Dates, timeline. Did the Church exist at this moment? No. It was commissioned at Pentecost."Says the church that has no witness.
"What is the RCC?"Its the edifice in Rome operated by the man you know as the pope.
"Jesus did refer to the Church. Is it missing from your truncated Bible?"You mean those uninspired extra-biblical works?
"What is the RCC?"I get the feeling that if I went through your posting history, I would find that you already knew what the RCC was.
"If you make up your own theology and do not follow the Church of Jesus, then you must answer for it, not to me, nor to the Pope or to any man."Says the man whose church has placed science and uninspired works alongside inspired works.
***”Christ made the Church; the Church made the Book. No circle. A line, as it were. First Christ, then the Church, then the Book. I am sorry if you did not get it the first time.”
They have no witness.***
The Apostles and the writers of the Epistles serve as witnesses enough for me and for Bible Believers.
***”Nope, not a strawman. I was asking for clarification on your part. Would you care to comply? Or would you curtly cut the conversation?”
I did clarify.***
You did not. Would you please restate your position?
***”Are you saying that you see Jesus and are physically following Him around?”
No, you misunderstand.
Go back and re-read what I wrote and try to understand it this time.***
You mean without the tinfoil hat?
***”Dates, timeline. Did the Church exist at this moment? No. It was commissioned at Pentecost.”
Says the church that has no witness.***
Neither the Apostles nor the Holy Spirit is good enough for you?
***”What is the RCC?”
Its the edifice in Rome operated by the man you know as the pope.***
What does RCC stand for? What is an edifice? How do you know that I know the Pope?
***”Jesus did refer to the Church. Is it missing from your truncated Bible?”
You mean those uninspired extra-biblical works?
Exactly so: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Peter and Paul had some too, as I recall. How many pages has your Bible been reduced to?
***What is the RCC?”
I get the feeling that if I went through your posting history, I would find that you already knew what the RCC was.***
I’m not interested in your feelings.
***”If you make up your own theology and do not follow the Church of Jesus, then you must answer for it, not to me, nor to the Pope or to any man.”
Says the man whose church has placed science and uninspired works alongside inspired works.***
We are not interested in anything other than the truth. Not even the fantasies of those who would be their own Pope.
***Taking inspired and uninspired works and putting them together and calling them the word of God is making up your own theology.
The Catholic Church still has no witness.
Try to do better next time.***
We only have the witness of the Holy Spirit. Sorry if it will not suffice. Who is your witness by the way?
"The Apostles and the writers of the Epistles serve as witnesses enough for me and for Bible Believers."But only because of the authority of the RCC, right?
"You did not. Would you please restate your position?"(Oh yes I did!)
"You mean without the tinfoil hat?"NO!
"Neither the Apostles nor the Holy Spirit is good enough for you?"Do the writing of the Apostles have more authority than the Catholic Church?
"What does RCC stand for? What is an edifice? How do you know that I know the Pope?"I'm actually starting to have fun now.(A while ago actually)
Pope Benedict XVI has reasserted the universal primacy of the Roman Catholic Church, approving a document released Tuesday that says Orthodox churches were defective and that other Christian denominations were not true churches.So when I say RCC or Catholic Church, I am referring to that which the pope is the head of.
"Exactly so: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Peter and Paul had some too, as I recall. How many pages has your Bible been reduced to?"I think the real question is, how many pages has your bible been expanded to?
"I’m not interested in your feelings."Haha!
"We are not interested in anything other than the truth. Not even the fantasies of those who would be their own Pope."I cannot imagine why anyone would want to be a pope.
"We only have the witness of the Holy Spirit. Sorry if it will not suffice. Who is your witness by the way?"
It’s wonderfully loving the way protestants keep reposting this article so the same garbage misrepresentations can be posted again and again.
There ought to be shame involved, but I suspect none is realized.
(See post 31)It’s wonderfully loving the way protestants keep reposting this article so the same garbage misrepresentations can be posted again and again.
There ought to be shame involved, but I suspect none is realized.
"Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82" --Petronski's taglineRevealing tagline.
“The Anglician church was started by a fat lecherious King of England so he could get a divorce from his wife, so I would that doesn’t count.”
You mean “Defender of the Faith” Henry? The first time he got that title it was from the Pope....
The fact that Rome was obviously politically favoring Spain at the time didn’t have anything to do with the rise of Anglicanism, I’m sure.
That’s the thing....Henry was what he was (and if he was a Kennedy, he’d have still been Catholic), but the Pope was hardly a paragon of virtue - steeped in the intrigue and politics of the time.
Protestantism saved the Catholic Church, forced it to clean up it’s act. And this is the thanks we get!
Well, so be it. They’ll be more than a few popes in hell to keep me company when I get there.
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