***”Jesus Christ gives the authority to the Church. If you do not accept the authority of the Church, then logically you cannot accept the Church’s documents, which include the Bible.”
“I would not believe in the Gospel if the authority of the Catholic Church did not move me to do so.” —MarkBsnr’s tagline
So the church gets it authority from the bible, and the bible gets its authority from the church.
Sorry, circular reasoning does not cut the mustard either.***
I’ll have to try with words of one syllable, I guess.
Christ made the Church; the Church made the Book. No circle. A line, as it were. First Christ, then the Church, then the Book. I am sorry if you did not get it the first time.
***Strawman.
When I wrote condemned I meant hell bound, something that was plainly obvious.***
Nope, not a strawman. I was asking for clarification on your part. Would you care to comply? Or would you curtly cut the conversation?
***You said:
“Jesus said to His Apostles, as He gathered them to follow Him. He was there physically.”
So what!
His commands to follow me and come unto me are very similar and are not exclusive to physical presence.
(If Jesus said to a sinner, follow me, and the sinner only physically followed him around, the sinner is still hell bound.)***
Are you saying that you see Jesus and are physically following Him around?
***He said come unto me, not come unto the church that claims to be my church.***
Dates, timeline. Did the Church exist at this moment? No. It was commissioned at Pentecost.
***If the RCC was ordained by Christ, why didn’t he speak of it extensively?
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
John 14:6
That would have been a perfect opportunity for Jesus to reaffirm the church that you claim he ordained.
Why didn’t he?***
What is the RCC?
Jesus did refer to the Church. Is it missing from your truncated Bible?
Matt 5:
18
Amen, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or the smallest part of a letter will pass from the law, until all things have taken place.
19
Therefore, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do so will be called least in the kingdom of heaven. But whoever obeys and teaches these commandments will be called greatest in the kingdom of heaven. 14
20
I tell you, unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter into the kingdom of heaven.
21
15 16 “You have heard that it was said to your ancestors, ‘You shall not kill; and whoever kills will be liable to judgment.’
22
17 But I say to you, whoever is angry 18 with his brother will be liable to judgment, and whoever says to his brother, ‘Raqa,’ will be answerable to the Sanhedrin, and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ will be liable to fiery Gehenna.
23
Therefore, if you bring your gift to the altar, and there recall that your brother has anything against you,
24
leave your gift there at the altar, go first and be reconciled with your brother, and then come and offer your gift.
25
Settle with your opponent quickly while on the way to court with him. Otherwise your opponent will hand you over to the judge, and the judge will hand you over to the guard, and you will be thrown into prison.
26
Amen, I say to you, you will not be released until you have paid the last penny.
I suppose that the Catholic Church teachings on Purgatory, Biblically based as they are, are also truncated from your Bible.
***Are not most of the recorded words of Christ related to Salvation?
Why is there a glaring lack of references to the RCC?
Try harder, your arguments are not convincing.***
What is the RCC?
Most of the words of Christ relate to our conduct and the consequences of acting as Pharisees and religious bigots and merchants of theological death.
Matt 16:
24
19 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “Whoever wishes to come after me must deny himself, 20 take up his cross, and follow me.
25
For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for my sake will find it. 21
26
What profit would there be for one to gain the whole world and forfeit his life? Or what can one give in exchange for his life?
27
22 For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father’s glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct.
The conduct of many who believe themselves saved is reprehensible and repugnant.
Let examine some Bible verses which address the self righteous and the theologically arrogant.
If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word; and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make Our home with him. He who does not love Me does not keep My words…. (John 14:23-24)
Again, when a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, and I put a stumbling block before him, he will die. Since you did not warn him, he will die for his sin. The righteous things he did will not be remembered, and I will hold you accountable for his blood. (Ezek 3:20)
But if a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die. (Ezek 18:24)
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and commits sin, he will die for it; because of the sin he has committed he will die. (Ezek 18:26)
If I tell the righteous man that he will surely live, but then he trusts in his righteousness and does evil, none of the righteous things he has done will be remembered; he will die for the evil he has done. (Ezek 33:13)
If a righteous man turns from his righteousness and does evil, he will die for it. (Ezek 33:1
But each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. Then, after desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and sin, when it is full-grown, gives birth to death. Don’t be deceived, my dear brothers. (James 1:14-16)
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth, and one turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death, and will cover over a multitude of sins. (James 5:19,20, NASB)
I tell you the truth, if anyone keeps my word, he will never see death. (John 8:51)
Those on the rock are the ones who receive the word with joy when they hear it, but they have no root. They believe for a while, but in the time of testing they fall away. (Luke 8:13)
Some fell on rock, and when it came up, the plants withered because they had no moisture. (Luke 8:6)
Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life. He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death. (Rev 2:10,11)
But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found. (Luke 15:32)
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death. (Rev 21:
Then he said to them all: “If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me. For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for me will save it. What good is it for a man to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit his very self? If anyone is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of him when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.” (Luke 9:23-26)
But unless you repent, you too will all perish. (Luke 13:3)
All men will hate you because of me, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved. (Matt. 10:22)
Someone asked him, “Lord, are only a few people going to be saved?” He said to them, “Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to.” (Luke 13:23, 24)
with thanks to http://777denny.wordpress.com/2008/03/03/once-saved-always-saved-doctrine-can-land-you-in-a-place-called-hell/
If you make up your own theology and do not follow the Church of Jesus, then you must answer for it, not to me, nor to the Pope or to any man.
"Christ made the Church; the Church made the Book. No circle. A line, as it were. First Christ, then the Church, then the Book. I am sorry if you did not get it the first time."They have no witness.
"Nope, not a strawman. I was asking for clarification on your part. Would you care to comply? Or would you curtly cut the conversation?"I did clarify.
"Are you saying that you see Jesus and are physically following Him around?"No, you misunderstand.
"Dates, timeline. Did the Church exist at this moment? No. It was commissioned at Pentecost."Says the church that has no witness.
"What is the RCC?"Its the edifice in Rome operated by the man you know as the pope.
"Jesus did refer to the Church. Is it missing from your truncated Bible?"You mean those uninspired extra-biblical works?
"What is the RCC?"I get the feeling that if I went through your posting history, I would find that you already knew what the RCC was.
"If you make up your own theology and do not follow the Church of Jesus, then you must answer for it, not to me, nor to the Pope or to any man."Says the man whose church has placed science and uninspired works alongside inspired works.