(WELS Lutheran) STATEMENT ON THE ANTICHRIST (Open)

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod Website ^

[markomalley]

I thought that the WELS was one of the Lutheran groups that had modified their views on the papacy as the antichrist (to my knowledge, the LCMS was the only major Lutheran group that still maintained that belief). Apparently they, in fact, hadn't changed their views after all.

Is the above article still an accurate statement of Lutheran belief on the papacy in general? Or just the WELS?

(Believe it or not, I'm just trying to find out the above answers...not trying to stir up a hornet's nest)

[elcid1970]

Yes... the papist hornets on this website are also awaiting a response.

[DManA]

I don't think the Roman church is now or has been Antichrist. But it bears watching in the future. An organization which vests all power in one man is uniquely vulnerable to attack.

[MEGoody]

Luther left no doubt where he stood concerning the Papacy when he wrote, “This teaching [of the supremacy of the pope] shows forcefully that the Pope is the very Antichrist

I gotta disagree with Luther on this one. Obama is the antichrist.

[trisham]

I gotta disagree with Luther on this one. Obama is the antichrist.

***********************

I believe you are quite right.

[wideawake]

The tiny WELS is more conservative than the LCMS on pretty much every Lutheran doctrinal distinctive.

You may have WELS confused with another group.

[silverleaf]

Isn’t a deceiver supposed to precede the antichrist?
We are seeing a world class deceiver on stage, running for leader of the free world. I think he’s even managed to deceive himself.

[ChurtleDawg]

Well, in the book of Revelation, the two beasts are described like the Roman emperor and the high priest of the emperor cult. Furthermore, the “number of the beast”, 666, corresponds to the title “Nero Ceasar”.

That does not mean that a preterist interpretation is the only valid one-—it may mean John was saying that history will repeat itself again with the same emperor/imperial cult motif surfacing to persecute the people of God, like it repeated itself with the Roman empire.

[Cheverus]

From what I have been told by Lutherans, the WELS (third largest group after ELCA and LCMS) is considered a bit radical. I believe they also dropped James from the NT (or some other such book that Luther didn’t like but left in).

I would say this is a very accurate statement of belief for the WELS but not Lutherans in General.

I would suspect the “open question” theory would be how it is treated among some of the more traditionally minded Lutherans.

[Tao Yin]

In the LCMS, the Book of Concord is considered our synod's "little t" truth understanding of the Bible's "Big T" Truth.

As far as I know, the ELCA considers both the Bible and the Book of Concord as historical documents with only elements of truth.

In the LCMS, we consider Luther's belief as only having elements of truth.

Interestingly, the pastors in the LCMS are required to believe the Book of Concord is in complete agreement with the Bible, but this is not required of the congregation.

[marshmallow]

Since Scripture teaches that the Antichrist would be revealed and gives the marks by which the Antichrist is to be recognized (2 Th 2:6,8), and since this prophecy has been clearly fulfilled in the history and development of the Roman Papacy, it is Scripture which reveals that the Papacy is the Antichrist.

I think I'll mail the author a copy of my tagline.

When all is said and done, it's really nothing more than pride and presumption, allied to an absence of the virtue of prudence, which underlies writing like this.

St. Peter, in his second letter, when referring to the writings of St. Paul, says that parts of Paul's writings are difficult to understand and that they are often twisted by those who wish to use them for their own purposes. You'd think that an admonition from Scripture itself, that certain parts of Scripture are difficult to understand, would give pause to the headstrong and foolhardy. Apparently not.

Aside from that, I'd just draw attention to the scripturally unsound belief that the Antichrist is an office and not a man ("the Papacy is the Antichrist"). That logically implies that the role of Antichrist is an elected post and that the present Pope was not the Antichrist before he was elected in 2005. Not solid Scriptural scholarship nor even good English.

Let "the Bible sez" crowd continue to argue amongst themselves and tie themselves up in knots about their personal takes on Sacred Scripture.

[xsmommy]

LOL!!! i only clicked on this article because i was just sure the Lutherans and proclaimed Obama as the antichrist. Especially in light of his 75,000 strong audience of adoring fans for his acceptance of the nomination. that screams out antichrist right there.

[PjhCPA]

I believe they also dropped James from the NT (or some other such book that Luther didn’t like but left in).

As a WELS member, I can you tell 100% that statement is false. We have not dropped any books from the NT.

[PastorTony]

Interestingly, the pastors in the LCMS are required to believe the Book of Concord is in complete agreement with the Bible, but this is not required of the congregation.

This is the same in most confessional churches. We are independent, but our church constitution states that elders and deacons must be in full subscription to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith (our adopted confession) but church members only need to be in general subscription. This is to safeguard the church from having men teaching that are not in agreement with what the church has adopted as a doctrinal standard.

[Gamecock]

Thinking of converting there Mark? ;-)

[Tao Yin]

There is only one infallible interpretor: the Holy Spirit.

1 John 4:1 do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God

If the early Church had the authority to test the spirit, then the modern Church should as well.

An individual man or institution as an infallible interpretor is not an Apostolic Teaching. It is a human rationalization for the power of Rome.

With the Holy Spirit, if they listen and submit, truth will win. Otherwise their works will burn up and they'll be left naked before God.

[Salvation]

**We identify the Antichrist as the Papacy. **

I find it difficult to believe that Lutherans actually believe this.

I’m sure it is a surprise to Pope Benedict XVI.

Just Catholic Bashing nonsense, in my opinion.

[B-Chan]

[B-Chan]

An organization which vests all power in one man is uniquely vulnerable to attack.

The Pope has no power of his own. He cannot (in his own name) excommunicate any person, revise the liturgy, or force anyone to do anything. He does possess the authority to teach, but this only in Christ's name; should any teaching of a given pope contradict that which Christ taught, whether directly or through the mouths of previous popes, he would cease to be pope. In other words, no pope can ever teach (for example) that abortion is not a sin or that one can attain eternal life by means other than Jesus Christ; were a given pope to do so, he would prove himself an antipope by definition.

[joe fonebone]

Here is an interesting tidbit...at the time the bible was assembled, the capital of the roman empire was the city of seven hills, more commonly known as Constantinople(Constantinople was actually built on top of seven hills, and the structure to this day still supports the city )this city is located in turkey, and today is known as Istanbul. Could the antichrist originate in this city? Does that mean the antichrist is muslim?