(WELS Lutheran) STATEMENT ON THE ANTICHRIST (Open)

Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod Website ^

[PjhCPA]

Very funny (/sarcasm) unless you are referring to ELCA which gave up on Luther’s teachings a long time ago.

[DManA]

ELCA hasn’t given up on Luther’s teachings. It is just selective about them. He wasn’t a prophet after all. But much of his teachings are gold and have aided millions of Christians on their journey.

[Alex Murphy]

Ping to read & respond later

[Celtman]

... elders and deacons must be in full subscription to the 1689 London Baptist Confession of Faith ...

And the London Confessions includes (§26.4)

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Head of the Church. In Him, by the appointment of the Father, is vested in a supreme and sovereign manner all power for the calling, institution, order, or government of the Church. The Pope of Rome cannot in any sense be head of the Church, but he is that antichrist, that man of sin, and son of perdition, who exalts himself in the church against Christ and all that is called God, who the Lord shall destroy with the brightness of His coming.

The Baptist Confession of Faith (1689)

But 1 John 2:18 refers to "many antichrists,", and it it may be more accurate to refer to the Bishop of Rome as an antichrist than as the antichrist.

[Celtman]

"... at the time the bible was assembled, the capital of the roman empire was the city of seven hills, more commonly known as Constantinople ..."

OK, but at the time the Bible was recorded, the capitol of the Roman empire was Rome, and Rome ... also was built on seven hills. See The Seven Hills of Rome

[SoCalPol]

Having been around LCMC for many decades this posting is not a factual belief of members.

Bashing doesn’t elevate your personal belief.

[PastorTony]

But 1 John 2:18 refers to "many antichrists,", and it it may be more accurate to refer to the Bishop of Rome as an antichrist than as the antichrist.

I would agree. Note though that full subscription means in the sense of the document not in a wooden literal sense.

[joe fonebone]

This would make sense if the vatican was built on seven hills....but it was only built on one hill, vatican hill........

[markomalley]

Thinking of converting there Mark? ;-)

LOL

 

 

BTW, like your tagline!

[markomalley]

Just Catholic Bashing nonsense, in my opinion.

Just a small piece of history...

(I actually know of no Lutherans who actually believe this in practice. I find it funny to see it listed as dogma on an official synod website, though)

[markomalley]

Having been around LCMC for many decades this posting is not a factual belief of members.

May not be, but it is on the official website of the Wisconsin Evangelical Lutheran Synod. So, regardless of what members think, that is the official position of the denomination.

Bashing doesn’t elevate your personal belief.

How is quoting an article from an official source bashing the source? Or are you thinking that I was bashing Catholics?

[SoCalPol]

Wisconsin Synod, LCMS and ELC are different synods of the Lutheran church.

The Litergy is different in them.
They also have a different take on belifs.

LCMS is closer to the Catholic and Episcopal, one reason most parishes won’t allow and ELC Pastor in the pulpit or
communion to them.

One reason it was easy to follow the Mass at the Kolon Cathedral in Germany

Wisc. can’t speak for LCMS as they are also different.

[markomalley]

Wisconsin Synod, LCMS and ELC are different synods of the Lutheran church

Understood.

The Litergy is different in them.

OK.

They also have a different take on belifs.

OK

LCMS is closer to the Catholic and Episcopal, one reason most parishes won’t allow and ELC Pastor in the pulpit or communion to them.

I'd heard that before.

One reason it was easy to follow the Mass at the Kolon Cathedral in Germany

OK, we're talking about this one, right:

Always thought that it was a Catholic cathedral...

Wisc. can’t speak for LCMS as they are also different.

Sure, that only makes sense.

But what about this statement from the official LCMS website:

43. As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist "as God sitteth in the temple of God," 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ's sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation -- these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is "the very Antichrist." (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

Source: A Brief Statement of the Doctrinal Position of the Missouri Synod [Adopted 1932].

As I stated earlier, I haven't actually met any Lutherans (of any particular stripe) who believe that the above is true. Despite that, the above is the official position of the LCMS.

[trisham]

Always thought that it was a Catholic cathedral...

*******************

It looks like one, doesn't it? Beautiful.

[SoCalPol]

Always thought that it was a Catholic cathedral...

It is, but the litergy even in German is very much alike

Most LCMS have kneelers, kneel at communion and the host put on the tougue, stations of the cross, and could go on.

Digging up crap from the 1930s doesn’t prove anything only that you seem to want to put a wedge between religions that are more alike than not.

IF you have feel you have to tear down one religion to build up yours, it does’t say much for yours and I say that with a large majorty of my family being Catholic besides LCMS Lutheran and Anglo-Catholic.

[markomalley]

Digging up crap from the 1930s doesn’t prove anything only that you seem to want to put a wedge between religions that are more alike than not.

No, you're missing the point. That is not crap dug up from 1930s. That is from the 2008 website. It still exists. It hasn't been disavowed.

I don't have a wedge. I am exposing the wedge that, in fact, exists. I am, in fact, quite pleased with joint statements put out by the Catholics and the Lutherans, such as the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification.

The point is that the statement, although made in 1932, is still an official point of LCMS doctrine, as indicated by their official website. If it's not current teaching, don't you think that your synod should amend it, sort of like what most of the Presbyterians did with the Westminster Confession?

I mean, I agree with you that the vast majority of Lutheran doctrine is VERY similar to Catholic doctrine. The majority of the points brought out by the 99 Theses were, in fact, addressed by the Council of Trent...particularly the issue addressing the sin of Simony prevalent in the Church during Luther's time (which, as I recall, was Luther's primary reason for breaking from the Church).

But if statements like the WELS statement I posted in the original post and the LCMS statement I posted above exist...on both Synods' official sites...then don't those statements need to be acknowledged? And then if there is a division between the Lutheran laity and their leadership, shouldn't the division be rectified (either better catechesis to the laity, explaining how the statements are right, or a modification of the statements by the leadership)?

But individual Lutherans sticking their heads in the sand about those statements is analogous to a Catholic sticking his head in the sand about Marian dogma or about relics or the like.

One way or the other, I think it should be addressed. Not as a matter of knocking Lutherans or knocking Catholics. Rather, as a matter of theological honesty.

[SoCalPol]

You might want to contact one of the LCMS seminaries and speak to someone who can factually give you an answer
as there is no LCMS clergy I have known or members who hold to that view.

I was at the SchlosKirche in Wittenberg in 1983 where the
95 Theses were posted and Luther is buried in the chancel.

was also at the Wartburg Castle

Saw the monistery where he was an Augustinian Monk and the church he was ordained a priest.

There are also Catholic writings on orthodox Protestants
that border on hate and misunderstanding but I can see beyond that even though I have ancestors who were killed in the St. Bartholomew Day’s Massacre, many 9th and 10th great grandparents fled Europe and made it to Holland then England then to New Amsterdam (NYC)in 1620s

I have over 150 9th great grandparents that fled England
in late 1620s to 1634 to New England. Some earlier were in hiding in the 1500s.

I have researched the history on these ancestors but don’t believe in making a career in grinding away at their persecutors.

I am more concerned with my relatives in Iraq, Afgan. and Africa fighting the IslamOfascists who want to do away with
all Christians and Jews.

[markomalley]

You might want to contact one of the LCMS seminaries and speak to someone who can factually give you an answer as there is no LCMS clergy I have known or members who hold to that view.

I was actually hoping that a Lutheran clergyman might respond to this thread.

I was at the SchlosKirche in Wittenberg in 1983 where the 95 Theses were posted and Luther is buried in the chancel. was also at the Wartburg Castle

I visited there in 1977.

There are also Catholic writings on orthodox Protestants that border on hate and misunderstanding but I can see beyond that even though I have ancestors who were killed in the St. Bartholomew Day’s Massacre, many 9th and 10th great grandparents fled Europe and made it to Holland then England then to New Amsterdam (NYC)in 1620s.

Yup, I know. Feeneyism was condemned as heretical by the Vatican a long time ago. ref. Even the author of the august tome, Babylon Mystery Religion, has renounced this book and his earlier writing. There has, frankly, been enough blood shed on both sides, in my opinion. We Christians have a common enemy.

Having said that, wounds need to be exposed to light and air to truly heal. Denying they exist do nothing but allow them to fester beneath the covers. As JPII stated back in 1994,

33. Hence it is appropriate that, as the Second Millennium of Christianity draws to a close, the Church should become more fully conscious of the sinfulness of her children, recalling all those times in history when they departed from the spirit of Christ and his Gospel and, instead of offering to the world the witness of a life inspired by the values of faith, indulged in ways of thinking and acting which were truly forms of counter-witness and scandal.

source

I am more concerned with my relatives in Iraq, Afgan. and Africa fighting the IslamOfascists who want to do away with all Christians and Jews.

No doubt. Unfortunately, our government seems to want to collaborate with their extermination.

[Cheverus]

Thank you for the correction, I had been led to believe that from a less reliable source.

[Quix]

WELS

has long been about as

exclusivistically loopy as the RC edifice has been.

I don’t think either side of the two have much grounds to point the finger at the other on those scores.