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What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation"
CUF ^

Posted on 06/28/2008 3:25:43 PM PDT by NYer

Issue: What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" (extra ecclesiam nulla salus)?

 

ResponsE: All salvation comes through Jesus Christ, the one Savior of the world (cf. Acts 4:12). His Holy Spirit dispenses those graces through His body, the Church. "He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me" (Lk. 10:16).

 

Quoting from various documents of Vatican II and Pope Paul VI, the Catechism of the Catholic Church (no. 776) explains:

 

As sacrament, the Church is Christ’s instrument. She is taken up by Him also as the instrument for the salvation of all, the universal sacrament of salvation, by which Christ is at once manifesting and actualizing the mystery of God’s love for men. The Church is the visible plan of God’s love for humanity, because God desires that the whole human race may become one People of God, form one Body of Christ, and be built up into one temple of the Holy Spirit. (see also nos. 846-848)

 

Discussion: There are two principal errors when it comes to the Church’s teaching on extra ecclesiam nulla salus. Some reject this teaching as both incorrect and arrogant. Others interpret this statement to condemn all those who are not visibly united to the Roman Catholic Church. To come to the proper understanding of this teaching, we must examine it within the context of divine Revelation and Church history. This examination will reveal that the phrase was not formulated to express who would go to heaven and who would go to hell, for only God will judge that. Rather, the phrase expresses an understanding of the Church in relation to her role in the salvation of the world.

 

Translation or Interpretation?

 

Many people translate the Latin phrase extra ecclesiam nulla salus as "Outside the Church there is no salvation." This translation does not seem entirely faithful to the Latin meaning, and contributes to the misunderstanding of the phrase.

 

The Latin word "extra" is both an adverb and preposition. Depending on its use in a sentence, the word has different meanings. When used to describe spatial relations between objects, the word is translated as "beyond" or "outside of"(e.g., beyond the creek is a tree; or, James is outside of the room). When used to describe abstract relations between concepts or intangible things, the word is commonly translated "without" (e.g., Without a method, it is difficult to teach). Within the phrase in question, extra is a preposition describing the abstract relationship of the Church to salvation. Considering the Latin nuances of the word, a proper translation would be, "Without the Church there is no salvation." This translation more accurately reflects the doctrinal meaning of the phrase.

 

Scriptural Foundations

 

In the Gospel of Mark, after the Resurrection, Jesus appeared to the Eleven and gave them the commission, "Go into all the world and preach the Gospel to the whole creation. He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mk. 16:15-16).

 

In order to accept or reject the Gospel, each person must have it preached to him. If acceptance or rejection of the truth were based on private revelations given to each man, woman, and child, there would be no need for Christ to commission the Apostles to preach the Gospel. Jesus desired to reveal Himself through His body, the Church. While this passage condemns those who reject the truth, it does not condemn those who have not had the truth offered to them as Christ intends.

 

The New Testament clearly teaches that salvation is a gift offered by God in various ways to all men. Adam, Abel, and Enoch lived between the first sin and the covenant of Noah. They were bound by original sin. All are considered to be in heaven. Enoch did not even die, but was taken to God before death (Heb. 11:4-5). These men were neither baptized nor circumcised, but nonetheless saved.

 

When the gentile centurion came to Jesus in Capernaum and asked for the healing of his servant, Our Lord agreed to go to his home, but the centurion said, "Lord, I am not worthy to have you come under my roof; but only say the word, and my servant will be healed" (Mt. 8:8). Jesus replied:

 

Truly, I say to you, not even in Israel have I found such faith. I tell you, many will come from East and West and sit at table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven, while the sons of the kingdom will be thrown into the outer darkness; there men will weep and gnash their teeth (Mt. 8:10-13).

 

Jesus makes a clear distinction between those who are sons of the kingdom (that is, those who have knowledge of and accepted of the faith) and those who are not. He includes in the kingdom of heaven many of those who are not. Jesus graces us with His incarnation, and His presence is known through His Body, the Church. The Church carries on the work of Christ here on earth. Those to whom the Church has not preached the Good News will be judged by God in a manner known to God and tempered with His mercy. As St. Paul explains:

 

When Gentiles who have not the law do by nature what the law requires, they are a law to themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that what the law requires is written on their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or perhaps excuse them on the day when, according to my Gospel, God judges the secrets of men by Christ Jesus (Rom. 2:14-16).

 

Sacred Tradition

 

Many people who claim that God restricts salvation to baptized Catholics cite the Fathers of the Church to prove their assertions. While space does not allow an exhaustive analysis of the Fathers, there are several necessary points to keep in mind. First, the Fathers must be understood in the context of their writings, not in the context of the one quoting them. The majority of the Fathers who wrote on this topic were concerned about those who had once believed or had heard the truth, but now rejected it. Many of them believed the entire world had heard the Gospel. Their words were not directed at those who, by no fault of their own, did not know the Gospel of Christ.

 

The Fathers do affirm the inherent danger in deliberately rejecting the Church. For example, St. Ignatius of Antioch wrote at the turn of the second century, "Be not deceived, my brethren; if anyone follows a maker of schism, he does not inherit the kingdom of God" (Letter to the Philadelphians 3:3). In the third century, St. Cyprian of Carthage wrote, "whoever is separated from the Church and is joined to an adulteress [a schismatic church] is separated from the promises of the Church, nor will he that forsakes the Church of Christ attain to the rewards of Christ. He is an alien, a worldling, and an enemy" (The Unity of the Catholic Church 6, 1). In the fourth century, St. Jerome wrote, "Heretics bring sentence upon themselves since they by their own choice withdraw from the Church, a withdrawal which, since they are aware of it, constitutes damnation" (Commentary on Titus 3:10-11).

 

On the other hand, many of the Fathers did write about those who were invincibly ignorant of the Gospel. Of these, the Fathers accepted that salvation was open to them, even if in a mysterious way. The Fathers recognized that the natural law of justice and virtue is written on the hearts of all men. Those who respect this law respect the Lawgiver, though they do not know Him. As St. Justin Martyr wrote in the second century:

 

We have been taught that Christ is the first-begotten of God, and we have declared Him to be the Logos of which all mankind partakes (Jn. 1:9). Those, therefore, who lived according to reason [logos] were really Christians, even though they were thought to be atheists, such as, among the Greeks, Socrates, Heraclitus, and others like them . . . those who lived before Christ but did not live according to reason were wicked men, and enemies of Christ, and murderers of those who did live according to reason, whereas those who lived then or who live now according to reason are Christians. Such as these can be confident and unafraid (First Apology 46).

 

In the third century, St. Clement of Alexandria wrote: "Before the coming of the Lord, philosophy was necessary for justification to the Greeks; now it is useful for piety . . . for it brought the Greeks to Christ as the Law did the Hebrews" (Miscellanies 1:5). Origen wrote, "[T]here was never a time when God did not want men to be just; He was always concerned about that. Indeed, He always provided beings endowed with reason with occasions for practicing virtue and doing what is right. In every generation the Wisdom of God descended into those souls which He found holy and made them to be prophets and friends of God" (Against Celsus 4:7). In the fifth century, St. Augustine wrote: "When we speak of within and without in relation to the Church, it is the position of the heart that we must consider, not that of the body . . . All who are within the heart are saved in the unity of the ark" (Baptism 5:28:39).

 

Magisterial Pronouncements

 

Throughout the history of the Church, the Magisterium has accepted and synthesized these teachings. Recognizing that God will judge our hearts according to the gifts we have received, invincible ignorance—that is, ignorance which cannot be overcome by ordinary means—tempers divine justice. Those who have knowledge of the truth are expected to accept it. Those who have not been given this gift will be judged according to the law written on their hearts. Two noteworthy examples of this position are found in Pope Boniface VIII’s bull Unam Sanctam (1302) and Pope Pius IX’s encyclical Quanto Conficiamur Moerore (1863).

 

Boniface VIII wrote concerning the nature of the Church and the supremacy of the Pope. He did not write concerning the damnation of those who have never heard the Gospel. After expressing the truth that there is only one Lord, one Faith, one Baptism and one Church, he explained that supreme authority of the Pope is both temporal and spiritual. He then ended by declaring: "We declare, say, define, and pronounce, that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff." This is not a statement demanding that everyone know the supremacy of the Pope to be saved, but rather is a truthful claim that the Pope authority from God as the legitimate successor of St. Peter, to whom Our Lord entrusted the keys of the kingdom.

 

Pius IX clearly expressed the full teaching a century ago. His writing distinguishes between those who are invincibly ignorant and those who have willfully separated themselves from the Catholic Church:

 

There are, of course, those who are struggling with invincible ignorance about our most holy religion. Sincerely observing the natural law and its precepts inscribed by God on all hearts and ready to obey God, they live honest lives and are able to attain eternal life by the efficacious virtue of divine light and grace. Because God knows, searches, and clearly understands the minds, hearts, thoughts, and nature of all, His supreme kindness and clemency do not permit anyone at all who is not guilty of deliberate sin to suffer eternal punishments. Also well-known is the Catholic teaching that no one can be saved [without] the Catholic Church. Eternal salvation cannot be obtained by those who oppose the authority and statements of the same Church and are stubbornly separated from the unity of the Church and also from the successor of Peter, the Roman Pontiff, to whom the custody of the vineyard has been committed by the Savior (no. 7).

 

Sacrament of Salvation

 

In an expression of the authentic Magisterium, the college of bishops further explained this doctrine in the context of Christocentric sacramental theology at Vatican II. Echoing the words of St. Paul, the Council described the Church as the Spouse and Body of Christ (Lumen Gentium, nos. 6-7). Jesus is one with His Spouse, the Church (cf. Eph. 5:32). The two form the one Body of Christ visible on earth. Christ is the Head, and He ministers through His body as the sacrament of salvation (Lumen Gentium, no. 9). To whom does He minister? Both His body and those apart from the body, that he might draw all men to Himself (ibid., no. 13). In this way, the Church dispenses to all men the graces of salvation won by Christ. Those who knowingly reject these graces are lost. Those who accept them are saved. Those who do not have the opportunity to accept the grace can be saved because of the presence of the Church in the world (cf. 1 Cor. 7:12-16). If they are saved, they are saved through the Church without their knowledge of that grace.

 

Vatican II declares:

 

[Many] of the most significant elements and endowments which together go to build up and give life to the Church itself, can exist outside the visible boundaries of the Catholic Church: the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements. All of these, which come from Christ and lead back to Him, belong by right to the one Church of Christ. . . . It follows that these separated Churches and communities as such, though we believe they suffer from the defects already mentioned, have been by no means deprived of significance and importance in the mystery of salvation. For the Spirit of Christ has not refrained from using them as means of salvation which derive their efficacy from the very fullness of grace and truth entrusted to the Catholic Church (Decree on Ecumenism, no. 3).

 

Come Aboard!

 

This teaching of Christ and His Church is not meant to allow indifferentism or exclusivism. Baptism and unity with the Catholic Church provide the only assurance of salvation, but not the only means. "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but He Himself is not bound by His sacraments" (Catechism, no. 1257, original emphasis).

 

The will of God is for "all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth" (1 Tim. 2:4). To fulfill His will, Jesus commissioned the Apostles to preach the Gospel and baptize those who would embrace it (Mk. 16:16). He gave us the Sacrament of Baptism and unity with the Church as the ordinary means of salvation. By Baptism we are made sharers in the life of Christ. When we participate in the fullness of life within the Church, we remain obedient children of God with the Church as our Mother. To provide assurance for the salvation of all men, we must fulfill the command of Christ to evangelize the world and bring all into His Body, the Church.

 

Because God is not bound by the sacraments, He makes the grace of salvation available to all in ways unknown to us. This is the basis for the Church’s teaching on "Baptism of desire" (cf. Catechism, nos. 1258-60, 1281). This occurs, for example, when one seeks Baptism but dies first, or when one dies without explicit knowledge of Christ, but would have embraced the truth had it been presented. Only God can judge their souls.

The Church is the ark through which men are saved. Noah and his family were the only men saved on the ark, but even animals who had no understanding of the matter were saved with them. As the ark saved all on it, even those who had no knowledge, so does the Church, as the universal sacrament of salvation, dispense the graces won by Christ and applies them to all men of every place and condition. In a way mysterious to us, this salvation is offered to all, and God, who judges the hearts of all, will determine their destiny.


TOPICS: Apologetics; Catholic; Theology
KEYWORDS: salvation
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To: annalex
Thanks for the head-up.

I suppose that--despite my indication that I did not care to argue this point with you and your seeming agreement--nevertheless when you saw this post (perhaps you and NYer conspired to post it just now in light of Friday's discussion) you felt duty-bound to bring it to my attention in case either I was interested or the Holy Spirit wished to edify me. I hope I am always ready to receive what He has for me; anyway, I did read through it. I notice that you did not argue it personally, substituting others' arguments; I refrain from referring you to others' counterarguments.

My position remains unchanged that I do not now find it compelling to debate this with you, despite this latest provocation, beyond again affirming that I find the arguments presented to be (I shall be charitable and avoid the apt term "ludicrous") unconvincing.

However, having been thus provoked, I do take this nonargumentative liberty of asking whether you (as representing Catholics in general, if I may so dress you for this purpose) feel even any hint of discomfort at your too-lofty perch. That is, to overgeneralize, arrogating to oneself the position and role of sole avenue for salvation (again, I overgeneralize), does it not make you a bit queasy that you join thereby Satan and his prideful attempt to match God and the Pharisees' to essentially do the same? I am not suggesting anything Satanic or Pharisaic, I am pointing out the similarity of your positions: essentially, usurping God's role. You know well what happened to them. I am not suggesting a similar fate for you, I hasten to add--I believe that Catholics can be saved, even as I believe that some Protestants will not be, salvation not depending on the church but rather on the heart. But the history of those who claim they own the ball has not been to win the championship. I know, I know, the keys of the kingdom, etc., etc. As I say, I am not arguing the point. I am asking the human question: does it seem at all risky to you? Tenuous? Pretentious? Does it ever give you any pause? Should it? Just asking.

One reason I ask is that I saw that pride in my father when he converted to Catholicism late in life. He dealt with it very imperfectly, and I trust you now enough to ask, if you would be so good, whether that concerns you. One of my reasons for asking you of all people is your own experience with your wife's conversion--you would know.

NOTE TO BYSTANDERS: This is a personal question just for annalex, based on our existing relationship. I am completely uninterested in anything anyone else might care to say, so please save it.

41 posted on 06/29/2008 8:49:22 AM PDT by Hebrews 11:6 (Do you REALLY believe that (1) God is, and (2) God is good?)
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To: NYer
The church, as in the building, means NOTHING. You can have a “church” anywhere. It can be outside or in a building.

It is all about belief. People that worship Christ are the “body”. The body that worships Christ is the “church”. The “church” is the “body” of believers. The “church”, as int he building or the “body” of believers, doesn't determine anyones “salvation”. It is ONLY Christ, not the “church”, that determines who is “saved” and who is not “saved”. No mortal in a position of authority determines anyones salvation. It is ONLY Christ that determines this. He sees into your heart. It's not the rituals, traditions or ceremonies you participate in that determines your alvation stauts either.

42 posted on 06/29/2008 8:56:14 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: FatherofFive

“Here Christ says, and Paul reaffirms, that the Church will always teach the TRUTH.”

No, the “church” isn’t teaching the truth. It is rare that a church teaches truth today. Christ did NOT say that nor did Paul affirm that.

The church is falling away, today. The Bible teaches this:

2Thes.2:3

[3] Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Tim.4:3

[3] For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;


43 posted on 06/29/2008 9:01:28 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Iscool
Not according to God's words...Repentance and accepting Jesus as your Saviour are the ordinary and ONLY means of Salvation...Any other way will get you into Hell...Eternal damnation...

One would be smart to 'dump' those church fathers and pick up a dime store bible and find the TRUTH...

Do you have this verse in your Bible?

1Pe 3:21 And corresponding to that, baptism now saves you-not the removal of dirt from the flesh, but an appeal to God for a good conscience-through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

Or this one: Mat 28:19 "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit,

Dang those pesky facts

44 posted on 06/29/2008 9:02:55 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: Iscool
Jesus was talking to Jewish disciples...

If they believed Jesus was Christ, they were also Christians.

Not a Roman Catholic Gentile in the bunch...

Not a Gentile in the bunch, but the only Christians at the time were Catholics.

Jesus was speaking to individuals, not a Roman Catholic church...THAT is the context...

Those individuals WERE the Catholic Church as it existed at the time.

...The Living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not some man-made religion...

Well, first "pillar and ground of the truth" modifies "church," not "of the living God" (which is merely a prepositional phrase also modifying "church."

Second, you're right about no 'man-made religion.' The reference was to the Catholic Church, created by God the Father, founded by God the Son and guided to this day by God the Holy Spirit.

45 posted on 06/29/2008 9:07:10 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool
A guy can prove anything by the scripture if he mis-quotes enough scriptures...

Ladies and Gentlemen, I give you the dispensationalist creed.

46 posted on 06/29/2008 9:08:10 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool
“One would be smart to ‘dump’ those church fathers and pick up a dime store bible and find the TRUTH...”

You are soooo right!

Precisely what some advocate here, the “church” traditions and rituals will NOT gain you anything. It's all about what is in your heart. Many are quite content to do what the Bible says NOT to do:

Matt.6:7

[7] But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

Matt.15:9

[9] But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Mark.7:7

[7] Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

It is NOT an "interpretation issue". It's rather CLEAR for anyone who cares to follow CHRIST and not fallible mortals with a power hungry agenda.

Some prefer this:

Eph.4:14

[14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

They don't want to read the Bible. They'd rather listen and follow some fallible mortal with an agenda. Truth isn't important to them and they'd rather trust IMPERFECT HUMANS to determine what they believe and where they wind up when they die - how foolish!

47 posted on 06/29/2008 9:09:38 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Iscool

You know Scripture!

Bless you and hopefully you’ll get through to the lost.


48 posted on 06/29/2008 9:10:37 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: Iscool
Jesus was not talking to the Catholic church...

He certainly is: the Apostles were the Catholic Church at the time.

Jesus was neither speaking to just the Apostles or disciples...

These are Christ's words at the Last Supper. Who else was there but the Apostles?

The Holy Spirt did not come to show truth to the Catholic church...

No. The Holy Spirit came to show to the world through the Catholic Church, which at the time of the Pentecost was entirely sequestered in the upper room.

The discourse starts in chapter 14, for those that own a bible...

Hmmm. Jesus and the twelve gather for the Last Supper at the beginning of John 13, and the discourse runs through the end of John 17.

49 posted on 06/29/2008 9:15:41 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: nmh
It's rather CLEAR for anyone who cares to follow CHRIST and not fallible mortals with a power hungry agenda.

Fallible mortals such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Darby, Machen, Lindsey, LaHaye, et al.

50 posted on 06/29/2008 9:18:05 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Iscool; FatherofFive
No He didn't...Jesus said the 'gates of Hell' would not prevail against it...

pre·vail –verb (used without object) 1. to be widespread or current; exist everywhere or generally: Silence prevailed along the funeral route. 2. to appear or occur as the more important or frequent feature or element; predominate: Green tints prevail in the upholstery. 3. to be or prove superior in strength, power, or influence (usually fol. by over): They prevailed over their enemies in the battle. 4. to succeed; become dominant; win out: to wish that the right side might prevail.

According to the dictionary, if the gates of Hell did "Prevail" The Catholic Church would be destroyed. I guess your interpreation is off.

The Living God is the pillar and ground of the truth, not some man-made religion...

That is not what the Bible says, As Father of Five quoted:“But if I tarry long, that thou mayest know how thou oughtest to behave thyself in the house of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of the truth.” 1Tim 3:15,

You might want to look that one up.

A guy can prove anything by the scripture if he mis-quotes enough scriptures...

I wish you had put this at the beginning of your post, so that we would know what you were planning on right from the start.

51 posted on 06/29/2008 9:19:22 AM PDT by verga (I am not an apologist, I just play one on Television)
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To: rabidralph
That's right. Jesus Christ said HE was the only way to salvation. The Catholic church has absolutely nothing to do with the process.
52 posted on 06/29/2008 9:22:13 AM PDT by Ol' Sparky (Liberal Republicans are the greater of two evils)
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To: Petronski

Me: It’s rather CLEAR for anyone who cares to follow CHRIST and not fallible mortals with a power hungry agenda.

You: Fallible mortals such as Luther, Calvin, Zwingli, Darby, Machen, Lindsey, LaHaye, et al.

Me: If you’d bother to read the Bible, you’d know what GOD states. THAT was my point.


53 posted on 06/29/2008 9:35:35 AM PDT by nmh (Intelligent people recognize Intelligent Design (God).)
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To: nmh
If you’d bother to read the Bible, you’d know what GOD states. <

Are you telling me I don't read the Bible? That the only ones who read the Bible are the ones who agree with you?

Are you pretending to reading my mind?

54 posted on 06/29/2008 9:37:44 AM PDT by Petronski (Scripture & Tradition must be accepted & honored w/equal sentiments of devotion & reverence. CCC 82)
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To: Kolokotronis
How much do you want to bet I’ll never forget that or that down deep I still believe that’s what Roman and Latins believe?

The fact that you posted it here indicates that you still remember. I'll also bet that now, as an adult, you can look back on what you heard and forgive Sister for that painful statement. We all heard silly statements, such as that, when we were children. Through faith, I have learned to forgive.

55 posted on 06/29/2008 9:55:47 AM PDT by NYer ("Ignorance of scripture is ignorance of Christ." - St. Jerome)
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To: NYer

“I’ll also bet that now, as an adult, you can look back on what you heard and forgive Sister for that painful statement.”

I am among the chief sinners, NYer, my occasional refusal to forgive being a sin I am particularly prone to. I doubt Sister thought she was wrong then and if she is still alive I doubt she’d admit to error now. In that persistence she would be in the good company of multiple popes who proclaimed just what she said to our class of first graders.

BTW, I don’t believe that +BXVI believes this, else the images from the Mass at the Vatican today wouldn’t have included the EP. I do wish he’d come out and simply say, once and for all, that those predecessor popes were just plain wrong.


56 posted on 06/29/2008 10:19:14 AM PDT by Kolokotronis (Christ is Risen, and you, o death, are annihilated)
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To: NYer
Issue: What does the Catholic Church mean by the phrase, "Outside the Church there is no salvation" (extra ecclesiam nulla salus)?

Well ... according to a Nun I had one year for catechism when I was about eight (1956) - and she was like 104 (kidding) - it meant only Catholics can/will go to Heaven. Everyone else will burn in Hell. That scared the heck out of me and I looked at my playmates & schoolmates differently after that. Especially one kid who was a Baptist - I really felt sorry for him.

She also told us not to watch 'Father Knows Best' as it was written by Communists. [At least she was one for two :-)]

57 posted on 06/29/2008 11:05:38 AM PDT by Condor51 (I have guns in my nightstand because a Cop won't fit)
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To: FatherofFive

“The “church” is just people who have been saved by Jesus Christ. That is all the “church” is - Christian people; and as nice as Christian people are, they have no power to save anyone.

Unfortunately, this definition of ‘the church’ cannot be true, unless Christ is a liar. Look at the Church in context of Scripture. “

The Scriptures you posted don’t prove your point at all. They say NOTHING about a building or an institution. The “church” has always been and always will be the “people”. No apostolic succession, no pope, no institutionalize ritual, simply the shepherd and the flock ministering to each other and the world. Seems to be a point missed by many, not just Catholics.


58 posted on 06/29/2008 11:35:08 AM PDT by swmobuffalo ("We didn't seek the approval of Code Pink and MoveOn.org before deciding what to do")
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To: annalex; NYer; Coleus; Salvation; wagglebee

I’d like to thank all of you who keep the Catholic and Pro-Life ping lists. It is a valuable resource for many.


59 posted on 06/29/2008 11:49:31 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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To: verga
Those pesky scriptures.... but that's not what that really means.
60 posted on 06/29/2008 11:52:51 AM PDT by Jaded ("I have a mustard- seed; and I am not afraid to use it."- Joseph Ratzinger)
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