Posted on 06/10/2008 10:10:18 AM PDT by dangus
One controversial translation issue is the phrase, “mia ton sabbaton.” This has traditionally been translated as “the first of the week.” Under pressure from 7th-day Adventists, however, some translations of the bible have taken to translate this “on one of the Sabbaths.” But the Adventists’ translation is based on a faulty transliteration. In the Greek, “sabbaton” is spelled with either an omicron (“small ‘o’”) or an omega (“big ‘o’”). When spelled with an omega, “sabbaton” is the genitive plural. In other words, it means “Sabbaths’.” The Adventists’ position is that “primus” means “first;” “mia” means closer to the number, one. This is ordinarily true, but “primus” means “first” not only in time, but priority. Hence, to call Sunday the “primus” day of the week would be to denigrate the Sabbath. Hence, a strange idiom meaning, roughly, “Sabbaths’s one” is used for the first day of the week. The Adventists’ position would mean that for no reason, the bible uses a grammar which makes no sense: If the bible had meant “on one of the Sabbaths,” there’s no reason it would state, instead, “on one of the Sabbaths’.” An English speaker, fluent in Greek would ask, “on the Sabbaths’ one what?” Other bible passages make clear that the Resurrection took place on a Sunday, which would mean the Adventists’ translation contradicts other scripture… or makes one have to create more strange translation. A traditional reading of Luke 23:56-24:1 suggests Christ’s followers worked with all due diligence. Immediately after burying Christ, they prepared his burial ointments, then “On the Sabbath day, they rested according to the commandment. But on the first day of the week…” The Adventists reading would have them resting on the Sabbath, according to the commandment, “but on one of the Sabbaths.” The Adventists’ position is that the Sabbath they rested on wasn’t a Saturday, but was a different kind of Sabbath, so that one Sabbath can immediately follow another. (Leviticus does call two other holy days Sabbaths.) While that might explain how “one of the Sabbaths” (if that were actually a valid translation) might make sense in general, it certainly doesn’t suggest that the author refers to a Sabbath on the very next day. Rather, one gets the sense that such events happened some undetermined number of weeks later. One reason that Adventists gain some cache with such odd claims, however, is that the timeline of events in the gospels is somewhat difficult to understand. According to traditional interpretations of the bible, Jesus celebrates Passover with his disciples, is condemned, killed, and then buried… all before the Jews celebrate Passover. The Adventists correctly assert that the evening after the crucifixion is not actually Passover! But they get the meaning of that wrong. The Essenes, who formed the core of Jesus’ disciples (Peter, John, Andrew, and others) celebrated Passover according to a different calculation than the Sanhedrin. That Jesus’ apostles are depicted as doing what the Sanhedrin would have regarded as women’s work in preparation for the Passover confirms that Jesus was celebrating the Passover according to the Essene tradition. The Essenes celebrated Passover from what would have been Thursday evening through Friday afternoon. Hence, Jesus offered himself as the sacrifice of the seder, and was killed the next day, all within the Passover. Then, the Sanherin began their Passover. Many Adventists suppose that the “day of Preparation” is only preparation for the Sabbath. Luke 23:55-24:1 confirms the traditional timeline: They buried him on one day, rested for the Sabbath, then went back on the morning of the third day to anoint the body with spices, as Jewish custom dictated must be done in all appropriate haste. If we were dead for three days, as we count days, then the bible omits mention of one day, leaving the reader to wonder why they neglected his body that day. Even though he was dead for only about 40 hours, he was dead for three days by the way days were counted then: he was dead on Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. If three days meant he had to be dead for the largest part of each day, he would not have risen until the fourth day. The observance of Sunday is a remembrance of the Resurrection. It is in honor of his resurrection, not as a substitute for a Saturday Sabbath, that Christians choose Sunday as a day of prayer. Some people suppose that when Christ healed on the Sabbath, he was excused because the work was so critical, yet Jesus and his disciples did such mundane work as harvesting food for their immediate consumption (Mt 12:1). Given Jesus’ fasts, certainly satisfying hunger was no such critical labor. It is senseless to suppose that one is going to Hell because one fails to keep the Sabbath properly. As Paul preached, “Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day (Col 2:16).” The Sabbath was a day to renew our bodies and spirits. As Jesus stated, “The Sabbath was made for Man, not Man for the Sabbath (Mk 2:27)” Today, this purpose is fulfilled by keeping holy the day on which Christ rose from the dead.
Got differnet evidence? Then present it! You obviously think otherwise but have made not one single point other than to claim vague chapter references.
But please do NOT accuse me of things I did not say!
I never said the disciples could not count in chapter 24.
What I AM SAYING is that you are annoying me with piddling little snipes that prove nothing other than your total lack of reading comprehension of what I actually HAVE said.
My claim on the three days and three nights comes from Christ Himself in Matthew 12:39-40. He predicted three days and three nights as the sign to prove His divinity. Please read the posts before commenting, or falsely accusing...please!
So in your next post, your task is to...
Show me where I ever claimed four days
Show me where I said anyone couldn't count
Show me what YOU PERSOANLLY actually believe and substantiate it with some sort of cognitive evidence.
Because up to now all you have brought to the discussion is false accusations and vague references to your personal, but uncorroborated opinions on shadowed chapter references.
..or go away, because your unintellegent snipes are rude!
Nisan 14 was preparation and crucifixion [Leviticus 23:5] Wednesday. Placed in tomb at sunset Wednesday/Thursday [Luke 23:53-54]. First 24 hours in tomb; Wednesday evening/ Thursday (the 15th) and first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread begins [Leviticus 23:6]. Second 24 hour period in tomb; Thursday evening/Friday (the 16th) and the count of the Omer begins [Leviticus 23:15]. Third 24 hour period in tomb; Friday evening/Saturday and resurrection before sunset on the Sabbath [Matthew 28:1][Luke 24:1][John 20:1].
The reason the mainstream church selected 33 A.D. was to allow their 1 1/2 day theory of Friday crucifixion/Sunday resurrection to workout. Passover fell on a Friday that year.....but 72 hours later (per scripture) would put the resurrection on Monday afternoon....at sunset.
I can see that this discussion is getting you agitated, so it’s best not to continue. I can also see that you are fully engaged with your presuppositions. Take care.
Not understanding first century Hebrew culture is part of the problem here because if you were to ask Peter, John or Our Lord Himself, What is meant by the term "First....or one of the Sabbaths"? Their answer would be; 1. The first Sabbath (weekly) after Passover in the seven Sabbath count to Pentecost.....or 2. One of the seven Sabbaths in the seven Sabbath count from Passover to Pentecost (count of the Omer).
The Greeks did not have a word for Sabbath (not surprising) so a word was invented by the writers of the New Testament to describe the Sabbath of Resurrection (it was the first in the count) and the remaining six special Sabbaths between these two important Festivals of God ....Pesach and Shavuot.
In Leviticus we first see the word Shabbatot describing a special Sabbath and the word transliterated to the Greek is SABBATWN. In [Leviticus 23:15] the Hebrew is referring to the First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread which fell on a Wednesday evening/Thursday crucifixion week A.D. 30. It was considered a special Sabbath and was referred to in Hebrew as Shabbatot. If it were a regular weekly Sabbath the Hebrew would have said Shabbat. The word used in verse 16 is Ha-Shabbat and means weeks. Even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath (week) shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.
The King James incorrectly translates this word, "Ha-Shabbat", as Sabbath...but it means weeks. The problem most English speaking people have here is not realizing that this word can mean a number of things; Day of rest; seventh day of the week; a week of seven days; a period of seven years....a week of years. The meaning depends on the context. Here, scripture is speaking of the time between Pesach (Passover) and Shavuot (Pentecost) or 49 days plus one (seven weeks) plus one day. That's why the Festival is called "The Feast of Weeks"!
Consequently, whenever you see anything in the New Testament speaking of resurrection Sabbath or one of the Sabbaths between Passover and Pentecost you will notice this spelling....SABBATWN. It is the Hebrew transliteration to the Greek of the Hebrew word Shabbatot.....which means a special Sabbath. Ordinary Sabbaths are not referred to as SABBATWN.....or Shabbatot.
I don't know much about the Seventh Day Adventists and if this is their belief or not. I notice that you had referred to them frequently. Maybe one of them is on thread and could clarify if this is what they believe?
Scripture says it better than I: [Matthew 27:57-62] 57 When the even (between 3:00 P.M. and sunset) was come, there came a rich man of Arimathaea, named Joseph, who also himself was Jesus' disciple: 58 He went to Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. Then Pilate commanded the body to be delivered. 59 And when Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60 And laid it in his own new tomb, which he had hewn out in the rock: and he rolled a great stone to the door of the sepulchre, and departed. 61 And there was Mary Magdalene, and the other Mary, sitting over against the sepulchre. 62 Now the next day (Thursday, Nisan 15) that followed the day of the preparation (Wednesday, Nisan 14), the chief priests and Pharisees came together unto Pilate.
Please don't be confused by my saying Wednesday/Thursday. I mean the sunset that precedes the 24 hour time period of the Hebrews which began at sunset on Wednesday and finished at sunset on Thursday.
[Mark 15:42-46] 42 And now when the even was come (between 3:00 P.M. and sunset), because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath (first Sabbath of Unleavened Bread), 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre.
[Luke 23:50-54] 50 And, behold, there was a man named Joseph, a counsellor; and he was a good man, and a just: 51 (The same had not consented to the counsel and deed of them;) he was of Arimathaea, a city of the Jews: who also himself waited for the kingdom of God. 52 This man went unto Pilate, and begged the body of Jesus. 53 And he took it down, and wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a sepulchre that was hewn in stone, wherein never man before was laid. 54 And that day was the preparation (Wednesday, Nisan 14), and the sabbath drew on. (this is immediately before the sunset)
[John 19:31-42] 31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation (Wednesday, Nisan 14) , that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day (First Sabbath of Unleavened Bread) , (for that sabbath day was an high day,) (SABBATWN) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him. 33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water. 35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe. 36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. 38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus. 39 And there came also Nicodemus, which at the first came to Jesus by night, and brought a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about an hundred pound weight. 40 Then took they the body of Jesus, and wound it in linen clothes with the spices, as the manner of the Jews is to bury. 41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid. 42 There laid they Jesus therefore because of the Jews' preparation day (Wednesday, Nisan 14 right before sunset); for the sepulchre was nigh at hand.
To reiterate......He was placed in the tomb at sunset Wednesday, Nisan 14 and arose 72 hours later on the Sabbath at sunset on Nisan 17. Wednesday night/ Thursday day = 24 hours; Thursday night/ Friday day = 48 hours; Friday night/ Sabbath day = 72 hours! Three days and three nights....72 hours. We know it was 72 hours because scripture also verifies that.
[Matthew 12:40] For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. 72 hours!
[Mark 8:31] And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must suffer many things, and be rejected of the elders, and of the chief priests, and scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise again. This cannot be counted as anything less than 72 hours!
[Mark 9:31] For he taught his disciples, and said unto them, The Son of man is delivered into the hands of men, and they shall kill him; and after that he is killed, he shall rise the third day. This cannot be less than 24 hours nor more than 72 hours!
[Matthew 27:63] Saying, Sir, we remember that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again. This cannot be anything less than 72 hours!
[John 2:19] Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. Not less than 24 hours.....not more than 72!
The Hebrews have an idiom that qualifies any part of a day mentioned to be considered a whole day. When days and nights are mentioned in the same phrase.....the idiom does not apply.
Thank you for your blessing.......and I wish you the same in your search for truth.
Agree!
As I stated in an earlier post.
Placed in the tomb on Wednesday, 14 Nisan, which, by definition had to be before sunset, because after sunset, it would have been Thursday, 15 Nisan and the High holy Sabbath.
thank you.
SDG
Here is the key to [Colossians 2]. Paul is addressing the new Christians in the city of Colosse. Paul had never been there but was writing this letter to correct some erroneous and dangerous teachings he had evidently heard from Epaphras [Colossians 1:7][Colossians 4:12][Philemon 1:23] who had come to visit him in Rome while he was being detained.
Colossians was one of "Four" prison epistles written sometime around A.D. 59/61 and attempted to counter both Asceticism and Pharisaic legalism. Colosse was a hot bed of asceticism and many of the new Christians were still affected by pagan philosophy and regulations. They (the pagans) were passing judgment on the folks for their new found freedom in Christ feeling that any sincere belief system should include penance, abstinence, fasting and even self inflicted pain and suffering. The Christians of course did none of these.
All of of these new Christians had been either pagans or belonged to the Judaic sect of the Pharisees and this is why Paul stresses what he does. Let's look at [Colossians 2:8] Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. The whole subject of Paul's discussion here is not of the Divine Laws of Our Lord but of Philosophy, vanity, worldliness, and man made tradition! Does this sound to you like an indictment of God's Holy Festivals and Sabbaths?
[Colossians 2:14] Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross. Here is an interesting word that some feel is referring to the "Ten Commandments".....ordinances! 1378. dogma (dog'-mah) a law (civil, ceremonial or ecclesiastical) decree, ordinance. Paul isn't speaking about the Ten Commandments of God....he is referring to man made law or "Dogma".
Here are the only other places in the New Testament that use the word "Dogma".
[Acts 16:4] And as they went through the cities, they delivered them the decrees for to keep, that were ordained of the apostles and elders which were at Jerusalem.
[Acts 17:7] Whom Jason hath received: and these all do contrary to the decrees of Caesar, saying that there is another king, one Jesus.
[Ephesians 2:15] Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace.
So.....you see, when Paul says that Christ nailed these "Dogma" to the cross....it wasn't the Festivals and Sabbaths and Ten Commandments of Our Lord He was nailing. It was man made law and philosophy and worldly things like the pagan citizens of Colosse were familiar with. And when the Apostle tells these new Christians to ignore the criticisms of the pagans and Pharisees (verse 16) it was because Epaphras had taught them about the observance of God's Sabbaths, Festivals and New Moons. Paul was reinforcing the same observances.
>> You say: I’d like to see a citation for that, because the phrase “mia ton Sabbaton” (or any variation) does NOT exist in the Greek Old Testament. Exactly!! Thank you. You help make my point clear. <<
Harry, the OT doesn’t refer to mia ton Sabbaton OR mia ton ebdomais. The first day of the week wasn’t important to OT Jews.
But you’re saying that the phrase refers to a something that would’ve been divinley instituted, a part of Jewish law. So where is it? Where is the support for your assertion? You ask us to believe all these bibles are corrupted, but what do you offer to support your translation? How can the day after the second Sabbath of the season be called the “first Sabbath?” You come up with a bizarre answer that you do not substantiate.
Now, I did make a mistake referring to the Sabbath as the seventh day after the Feast of the Unleavened Bread; you’re right: it’s the seventh day after the Passover. But the point is that the Feast of Unleavened Bread is NOT a Sabbath.
Meanwhile, you list every single instance of ebdomais, either. I’d’ve readily concurred that word is used in the place of “week” in the Old Testament. Dozens of times. That word is used because the Greeks had no concept of a week, so when the Alexandrian Jews translated the Old Testament for Ptolemy, 3 centuries BC, they used a word meaning, roughly, “septet.” Its a pretty good word choice, too, since the Hebrew word, Shabbaowah, is similar to both Shabbot and the Hebrew word for seven. But as you acknowledge, the word appears nowhere in the New Testament. By the time the New Testament was written, its audience was fully aware of the usage of “sabbaton” to mean “week”.
BUT, when a holy day such as Passover fell on a Sabbath, it was referred to as a “high Sabbath,” which is what the gospels refer to the passover as. So, we know for a fact that the Sabbath (as practiced by the Sanhedrin, anyway) fell on a Sabbath.
You also offer no explanation for the use of the genitive (possessive) case.
>> You say:
how do you explain Luke 18:12? I’ve already explained ebdoma means week in Greek, not sabbath. I know you’re desperately grabbing for straws, but you’re a drowning man. <<
How does this explain the use of “twice a Sabbath”? That’s what Luke 18:12 says, not “ebdoma,” but “sabbaton.”
This is very confusing to some until you understand that Chapter and Verses were not included in the original writing. If you read [Mark 15:42 through Mark 16:1] you'll realize that the Sabbath being referred to is indeed the same Sabbath that [John 19:31] mentions. The High Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread! During crucifixion week this occurred from Wednesday evening through Thursday daytime....or the 15th of Nisan....Hebrew time [Leviticus 23:6].
When you divide Mark 15 and 16 the way modern translations do.....it tries to show more justification for a Sunday resurrection instead of a Sabbath (Saturday) resurrection. Try reading this passage and see how much sense it makes without the human division: [Mark 15:42-16:1] And now when the even was come, because it was the preparation, that is, the day before the sabbath, 43 Joseph of Arimathaea, an honourable counsellor, which also waited for the kingdom of God, came, and went in boldly unto Pilate, and craved the body of Jesus. 44 And Pilate marvelled if he were already dead: and calling unto him the centurion, he asked him whether he had been any while dead. 45 And when he knew it of the centurion, he gave the body to Joseph. 46 And he bought fine linen, and took him down, and wrapped him in the linen, and laid him in a sepulchre which was hewn out of a rock, and rolled a stone unto the door of the sepulchre. 47 And Mary Magdalene and Mary the mother of Joses beheld where he was laid. 1 And when the sabbath was past, Mary Magdalene, and Mary the mother of James, and Salome, had bought sweet spices, that they might come and anoint him.
Mark wrote this book as Peter spoke the words and his writings have been said to be faithful.....just not always in the proper sequence. See This
It says: For information on these points, we can merely refer our readers to the books themselves; but now, to the extracts already made, we shall add, as being a matter of primary importance, a tradition regarding Mark who wrote the Gospel, which he [Papias] has given in the following words]: And the presbyter said this. Mark having become the interpreter of Peter, wrote down accurately whatsoever he remembered. It was not, however, in exact order that he related the sayings or deeds of Christ. For he neither heard the Lord nor accompanied Him. But afterwards, as I said, he accompanied Peter, who accommodated his instructions to the necessities [of his hearers], but with no intention of giving a regular narrative of the Lord's sayings. Wherefore Mark made no mistake in thus writing some things as he remembered them. For of one thing he took especial care, not to omit anything he had heard, and not to put anything fictitious into the statements. Section XI
It was human hands that separated [Mark 15 and 16].... and they did it in a vain attempt to establish more "Proof" for their Friday/Sunday-Crucifixion/Resurrection myth!
I’m sorry....that should be “Papias” section VI....not XI.
>> This is very confusing to some until you understand that Chapter and Verses were not included in the original writing. If you read [Mark 15:42 through Mark 16:1] you’ll realize that the Sabbath being referred to is indeed the same Sabbath that [John 19:31] mentions. The High Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread! <<
Would you please cite evidence that the start of the Feast of Unleavened Bread is a Sabbath? You seem to be arguing ex nihilo! One last time: It is the SEVENTH day of the Feast of unleavened bread which is a Sabbath, NOT as you claim the first.
The “High Sabbath” is a Sabbath (Saturday) that coincided with a solemn holy day (Passover).
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