"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
Posted on 06/03/2008 7:26:27 AM PDT by topcat54
Because of the problem of evil and apostasy during the millennial age, premillennarians must attempt to deal with this problem by contending that the final judgment does not take place until after the thousand years have passed. In passages such as Matthew 25:31-46, where it is explicitly taught that the final judgment occurs when our Lord returns, premillennarians instead argue that there is a gap of one thousand years between our Lord’s return and the final judgment. But recall that premillennarians often insist that they are so, precisely because of the literal interpretation of the Scriptures and a reluctance to “spiritualize” prophetic portions of Scripture. So now we must ask our premillennial friends the obvious question, “where is the one thousand year gap between Christ’s return and the final judgment taught in the Scriptures?” It is not there. The gap must be inserted even though doing so violates the plain sense of the passage and the self-professed premillennial insistence upon a literal interpretation.
Therefore, the apparent strength of premillennialism is actually its biggest weakness. If premillennarians are correct about their reading of Revelation 20, the millennial age will be one in which Jesus rules upon the earth over people in resurrected and unresurrected bodies. Our Lord’s millennial rule will end with a massive Satanic deception of the nations and a revolt against Christ and his church after they have reigned upon the earth for a thousand years. If true, this millennial apostasy is tantamount to a second fall and not even resurrected and glorified saints are safe from the future wrath of Satan and the unbelieving nations. Although at first glance premillennarians may appear to have the plain sense of the passage on their side, the consequences of the premillennial interpretation cannot be easily dismissed.
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"For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled." (Luke 21:22)
You should call it the TERTARWWBFTRCCPL
“The Eschatology Referred To As Reformed Which Was Borrowed From The Roman Catholic Church Ping List” !!!!!
Only less than half kidding here...which means I’m more than half serious.
Yes, there are mortal, unredeemed people living and reproducing in the millennium. I don’t see any problem with that, since it’s CLEARLY taught in Revelation.
In the 1000ium, no one will be able to say “The devil made me do it.” All sin will be manifested from the _Totally Depraved_ nature of the human heart.
(And I do consider myself a Calvinist, by the way.)
Is there an PPL (Premillennialist Ping List)?
It’s the people who were born during the thousand years, who rebel at the end of the thousand years. And not all of them.
There is no reason to think that Christians who were raptured that return after the tribulation to rule with Christ are the ones that rebel.
Postmills and amills are similar in many ways if I understand it correctly, if I understand the two enough, Amills are also Postmills, but there is a twist. While Postmills will say we are in the millennium period, amills will say they are in now in the millennium in certain respects, the same respect as the postmills, except the amills noting that in other respects we are not in the millennium. They call it the now but not yet aspect of the millennium. But in so doing so they different them self from Postmills that only interrupt the certain scriptures that pertain to the millennium in a mostly narrow historical interruption, while the the amills will add a spiritual dimension to the passages (Though I'm not sure spiritual dimension would be the correct wording).
May I also add, though I can't find the internet site again, I remember reading some where where the term amill came about in the late 19th century in a attempt for some postmills theologians to different themselves from other postmill theologians.
alrght I'm a trilbe sepller, cuoldn't fiurege out how to sepll d*********, cuold smone one help meee.
You must be thinking of futurism and the Jesuit Francisco Ribera.
Yes, there are mortal, unredeemed people living and reproducing in the millennium. I don’t see any problem with that, since it’s CLEARLY taught in Revelation.
So, do you believe the only people living and reproducing during the millennium are unredeemed?
I would call myself “pan-mil” - it will all pan out in the End. But, alas, I remain staunchly “pre-mil” and believe the author still does not fully understand our position.
“So, do you believe the only people living and reproducing during the millennium are unredeemed?”
No, I don’t think so. Gotta run, though,,,,,,,,, bye for now.
Dr. Riddlebarger taught me the Reformed faith.
The other huge problem for Premillennarians is that Premil ignores the Scriptures.
Its easy to make a quick accusation like that, but the problem is not that they ignore Scriptures but that they approach it with a whole bunch of preconceived ideas of what it says, they are devoted in studying the scriptures with those preconceived ideas, The thing is to not get caught in arguing with them on minor issues but to concentrate on looking for those preconceived ideas that are the foundational stones of their arguments. If their foundation stones fail, they will more quickly tear down the whole building instead of repairing the same old shingles that split in two because the foundation is weak.
If we understand the way they think when it comes to interrupting the scriptures on the major issues like sin and salvation then we can more easily persuade them to believe what we believe, assuming that our preconceived ideas of interrupting the scriptures and foundational stones are correct. I think it not only we pray that we will find the truth but that we will also find the errors that we hang onto that keep us from seeing the truth and that we pray that we can help others see the truth and errors of their way after we see more clearly.
I hope no one has to tell you a 1,000,000 times that some language of the Bible is of the figurative speech type never to have been taken literally. Did you ever plan on being born again!
Christ announced his Kingdom is imminent (”at hand”). Yet premilllennarians are still waiting for it 2,000 years later? The Kingdom is present in the Church, within the mass. Now is the great apostasy, the great fracturing of the unity of the Kingdom.
By Nero, the beast, (Qsr Nrn in Hebrew, or “666”) thousands of first-fruit saints were slain, rising to Heaven. That was in 64 AD.
I was starting to say amen to the first part but then you had to go start adding that mass thingy at the end. It sounds like your a Catholic, not being a Catholic or thinking like a Catholic, What is the mass to a Catholic, and how is the Kingdom present in the mass.
There is a pattern of literal years meaning literal years. I used to have a copy of the NAB (Catholic) bible, which had EXTREMELY liberal footnotes. Those notes would always assume that a book had to have been written after the giving of a prophecy, because the notes author never believed that God could give, and execute prophecy.
I may be wrong, and so may all the other premills, but I think I follow a good pattern set down by the prophey Daniel - he believed in literal years in the Bible.
Daniel 9:2 “In the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, observed in the books the number of the years which was revealed as the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet for the completion of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.” (NASB)
Were you able to talk to Daniel yourself or are you presuming things from something you learn from someone else, or someone else's material along the line. Never the less how you learned that isn't really that important, the case can be made that a writer in the Bible can use several types of figures of speech, and figures of thought, I'm not the one to argue the text but I do know that the old Testament writers wrote differently then we do today and probably thought a little bit differently too, but never the less I do believe that God has preserve the message over the years even in what you might call a bad translation or even what I might call a bad translation but we need to keep in mind that all translation are still a work of man some may be more Godly then others, but still if God wanted to use non Christians to give us a better translation then so be it. God could use Catholics to do that. Ok I've got way off on a tangent now, I'll try to get back to Daniel, I kind of believe that God use a lot of prophecy through his prophets to give us a physical picture of things that happen during their life time or many generations after their life time. Never the less I believe that the physical picture we are left with for that prophecy that might be fulfilled historically is for us to get an physical idea of a greater sphere or world that we can not really see, and that is the spiritual world. The Premills like to see most every thing as future with world events that they can make movies and write books about, the postmills like to see most prophecy as being fulfilled during the first century or so in the world events back then and they have there books too but not as many and the amills are kind of like the postmills, they will recognize the world events of the postmills, but they also won't make a big deal about them, and in most cases won't even bring them up. But they do talk alot about spiritual warfare that has already taken place and is taking place in each Christians life, and that is where they thing the message of most prophecy is about. I wouldn't totally write off the postmills or amills but try to understand them more, I thing you're like many Christians they just pass along the most popular understanding of what ever theology is being talked about for that generation. That happens a lot here on FR whether your right, I'm right or john doe is right. the odds are that most of the views on FR are going to be the views that are in the majority views, Fortunately, our generation, you and me, can go to the Internet and test those theologies of ours out on others, we can also kill incredible amount of time doing that to, having just said that this thread is getting old, I've had a long day, and I'm going to bed soon. I which I had more time to spend on FR on the Calvinist threads, but hey thats life, I don't get paid for it. Well like I said I'm tired, take care and God bless.
Better yet, a PTPMPL(pre-Trib,Pre-Mil Ping List)?
I am a Catholic, but perhaps I could have worded it better, anyway, since the way I worded it, one could think I was stating it was merely present within the mass:
The Kingdom is present in the Church, made manifest (visible) within the mass.
These are the reviews on Amazon for Riddlebarger’s book, the reviews who give the lowest rating.
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