Posted on 05/28/2008 6:05:04 PM PDT by Ultra Sonic 007
Hello fellow Freepers. I believe this is my first post on the Religion forum.
Over the past week or so, I put some thought into something I've been pondering for a while; my spiritual welfare. As it was, I had been part of the 'Sola Scriptua' school of thought (Evangelical Christian). By the Bible and only the Bible. Sounded good enough.
Well...what about before the Bible was put into word? It stuck in my head when reading an article earlier on FR concerning a deconstruction of Sola Scriptura and its inherent weaknesses as a foundation for one's faith.
This, combined with a genuine lack of churchgoing (as a family, we've been uncertain about going to various churches, given that top-down problems with Episcopal/Methodist/etc. churches and their increasing liberalization are a genuine problem for one's spiritual welfare), compelled me to make a decision.
I don't know if my family will follow me, persay, but I'm going to go ahead and take the plunge.
Next month, I'm going to the Church of St. Thomas the Apostle near my home, and I'm joining the Roman Catholic Church.
As is, I have a few volumes of the Magnificat pamphlet and the Catechism of the Catholic Church to read.
Any other pointers from other Catholic Freepers?
There is no difference...although the way I would put it is that some are in communion with the Bishop of Rome and some are not.
I am not trying to start an argument with you...believe it or not...
I am trying to get you to understand that the paradigm you are using is an ineffective one to use against well-catechized Catholics.
My understanding of it is that you see the Catholic Church as just another denomination. We don't see it that way. We see the Catholic Church (or if the uppercase offends you, the catholic church, whatever) as the Church established by Jesus Christ. We can trace back roots continually to that time. We see our bishops as the successors to the apostles and can trace their lineage (through valid ordinations) back to that time.
You can dispute that all you'd like. The usual one talks about Constantine establishing the Catholic Church at the Council of Nicea. That one is easily refuted by looking at Patristic writings that predate that time. Another usual one speaks to the Church losing its authority due to doctrinal errors; however, that one can easily be refuted by an examination of the promises of Christ in the Scriptures (if the Church He established went so far off the tracks that it lost its authority, then that logically implies that it had that authority at one time, but subsequently lost it. Promises about the gates of hell not prevailing, promises about sending the Comforter to guide the Church would both be null and void...so what about His other promises? Like John 3:16)
Like I said, I'm really not trying to cause a massive fight with you here. I'm simply trying to point out that the tack taken to compare the Catholic Church with other denominations just doesn't wash...at least with educated Catholics (which describes most of us who post on FR). You need to come up with another line of thinking on that one.
(And although I'm posting to you, this is actually to anybody who cares to consider the friendly advice...so please don't take it as a personal affront...not intended that way at all)
“This Bible-believing Christian is laughing at efforts to create some false dichotomy between “Bible-believing Christian” and “Catholic.” “
No effort was made at such. I never used the phrase “Bible-believing Christian” - you did.
The dichotomy referred to was between “Bible-believing Protestant” and non-Bible believing Protestant (ie, liberal) churches.
While there are certainly genuinely saved, Bible-believing Catholics, many strike me as members of a social club.
To me, objectively, the purer choice would be to desire to join a conservative, Bible-believing Protestant church, rather than join a hit-or-miss mixed bag.
ewtn.com
**To me, objectively, the purer choice would be to desire to join a conservative, **
What church is more conservative than any other church?
Why does the media always slam the Catholic Church? Because it had stood steadfastly through the ages with Christ against abortion, euthanasia, homosexuality, embryonic stem cell research, etc. etc. etc.
Please re-think your stance. You will NOT find a more conservative church.
Jeremiah 10:12 He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.
Psalm 136:5 To him that by wisdom made the heavens: for his mercy endureth for ever.
Proverbs 8:22 The LORD possessed me in the beginning of his way, before his works of old.
8:23 I was set up from everlasting, from the beginning, or ever the earth was.
8:24 When there were no depths, I was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.
8:25 Before the mountains were settled, before the hills was I brought forth:
8:26 While as yet he had not made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of the dust of the world.
8:27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there: when he set a compass upon the face of the depth:
8:28 When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:
8:29 When he gave to the sea his decree, that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he appointed the foundations of the earth:
8:30 Then I was by him, as one brought up with him: and I was daily his delight, rejoicing always before him;
The actual answer is very uncomfortable for those with a post-reformation view of canons is, as well as anyone who believes in sola scriptura:
The passage, cited as scripture by Christ, is from a book which did not make it into the Septuagint, and therefore into the Catholic bible. Nor did it make it past the Council of Jamnia among the Jews (although I think it’s in the Talmud). Problem is I forgot which of the non-canonical books it’s from. An easier non-canonical scripture passage is found in Jude, wherein Jude cites the Book of Enoch.
YES! That's what we're saying! It's all about different ecclesiologies (and about not being willing to write people off). We're all about wheat and tares - the Church on earth (the "on earth" part is important to us) being a mixed bag, in our view.
We imagine people to whom salvation with all the richness of the graces and helps and all that that the body of Christ on earth can offer was presented, and who rejected it.
But we also imagine people whose entire lives until the last minute were spent rejecting it and then, like water eroding a damn, finally there's a breakthrough and the cumulative effect of all the God gives and has given to them through the Church collapses all their barriers, and at the last instant they turn to Christ.
So, yes, a lot of us look like members of a very peculiar and unsatisfactory social club. But it ain't over 'til it's over. Besides, who knows what the seemingly superficial person thinks about in the dreadful waking hours between 2 and 4 AM when the minutes crawl slowly over the ceiling and the mind goes back to all our sins and unhappinesses?
We cannot conclude, just because someone assumes a brittle disguise with which to face the world, that nothing is going on in their lives, that the Lord is not slowly beating down their defenses and pride. Those of us who think there are greater and lesser saints consider that little Miss Pointy-Pradas Lacquered-Hair may turn out at the last to be a far brighter beacon of Divine light that we will ever be.
I bet Paul looked like a jerk the day before he set out for Damascus.
Kirk? Now THAT’S a funny name for a Scotsman to turn to in a religious thread!
You do great work! I love the library you keep.
Wisdom may be God's first creation, or at least created before earth and all, but it does not follow that the compilation of it was so created.
To us those verses apply directly to the idea of created wisdom and analogically to Christ who we view to be the word of God.
I just state that, not as a "nyah nyah," but to set out the POV.
>>The Word is not a created thing— it was with God before the creation of the world, it is holy and therefore deserving of our worship, the same as Christ<<
So you worship the Word the same as Christ. That’s why some non-Catholics carry their Bibles like a talisman.
I thought so, Bible worship, I’ve seen it many times.
You might want to go back and read those Scripture verses again:
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” John 1:1-5, 14
The Word = Jesus Christ, not the Bible
We are not guiltless, by no means, and we have persecuted as well. And if this thread hasn't changed your mind and you go through with it, you may find that part of your vocation will be to help life-long Catholics see the beautiful and lovely parts of Protestantism, and there are many.
But you will find yourself, if you do that, "between". SOME Catholics will view you a little askance. And many Protestants will not forgive you, because they think they (a)know what we believe (when clearly they don't) and (b) have a duty to noisily and persistently revile it.
I think there is something remarkable here. But with it there are indeed persecutions, as Jesus promised. But could we expect to avoid them if we truly walk His walk?
Proverbs 15:33 The fear of the LORD is the instruction of wisdom;
Proverbs 3:19 The LORD by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.
The bible is not all of God's Wisdom by any means, but it contains Wisdom of His Mind that He reveals to us by the Holy Spirit. God's mind is not a book with covers, God's mind is thought.
The Jews consider God's word so holy that if it is damaged in any way, they will give it a funeral. Are the Jews worshipping a scroll?
nail=head
Spot on.
And while we may not go as far as he would like, do not the Scriptures have at least an "almost" sacramental quality? If they are not as closely identified with God as 1ks seems to say, yet they are the queen of traditions and, after our Lord, the chief self-disclosure of God.
So, for my part, I want to hear what 1ks has to say. Time enough to argue about it later.
***The bible is not all of God’s Wisdom by any means***
Could it be possible that God reveals His wisdom in the Church as well?
I'm stymied because I can only go halfway to 'god' through Mary and not all the way to God--you know, since I'm Catholic--and worse yet, I'd ask the Pope but since he can only get six of the seven sacraments I'm just thinking serious about becoming a Calvinist or a Baptist...that's the real real deal...
And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
2:5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
2:6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
2:7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:
2:8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
2:9 But as it is written , Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him.
2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.
2:11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.
2:12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
2:13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth ; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
2:15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man.
2:16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.