Transubstantiation—Hard to Believe? Transubstantiation—Hard to Believe? [Open]

Catholic Exchange ^ | May 26, 2008 | Marcellino D'Ambrosio, Ph.D.

[windsorknot]

Who needs to go to the Colosseum, when you can go to a “religious” thread and witness the spectacle of Christians eating each other?

[Iscool]

No. Christ intecedes. Others - because of Christ - share in that work with Him. Much like how Christ AND THE SAINTS will judge the earth at the end of time.

Who are they going to judge???

[Mad Dawg]

Elijah and Moses appeared and conversed with Christ. He didn’t pray to them.That may be a distinction without a difference. Are you saying we can communicate with the saints but we can't ask them to pray for us?

I would agree with Luther if he removed it. ;)

I see the smiley, but if we say "sola scriptura" and then we use some notion of a belief to say what Scriptura is, it's no longer sola scriptura. (This is admittedly sort of pro forma.)

I would think God encourages the communion of the saints — the coming together of Christians for worship and fellowship. But, that may be a different description of saints than to which you refer.

Yes. We'd include all the saints, not just the ones who have not yet fallen asleep.

[Mad Dawg]

Who are they going to judge???
That would be "whom". picky, picky.

I know Alex, for $500 What is "The talent competition"? Who is "Miss Congeniality"?

[Petronski]

Were more signs required for us to learn what we need to be Christians??? Did we need to learn more for Salvation??? Did we have to rely on anyone's tradition to learn of God and receive Salvation???Of course not...

Of course not? That's it? Just "of course not?"

Becasue what WAS written is all we need...It's complete... All you have to do is BELIEVE what He had the Apostles write...

None of the passages you quote say that nothing else is necessary. Sola scriptura is not biblical.

[NYer]

The physicist George Gamow related in his autobiography how, as a boy, he once saved the bread he had been given during communion, ran home, and examined it under a microscope. He credited this incident as being the origin of his atheism.

Now who's being gullible?

As for the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano, the claim that since some objects are found to be real flesh and blood, this somehow proves that a miracle occurred 1300 years ago, just shows how incredibly gullible many people are.

Some objects? The "objects" in question were a validly consecrated host and a chalice filled with wine. You quit the thread before seeing this post.

Gullible? You have no problem believing that Jesus Christ is God but don't believe what He said. Either He spoke the Truth or He lied. Which is it?

[cammie]

I’d agree to that stipulation.

[HossB86]

“Elijah and Moses appeared and conversed with Christ. He didn’t pray to them.That may be a distinction without a difference. Are you saying we can communicate with the saints but we can’t ask them to pray for us?”

No... I’m not saying that we can communicate with “the saints.” We pray to God. We don’t pray to saints. Why pray to the saints to pray for us when we can pray directly to God himself???

As for Sola Scriptura, that issue will be argued from now until Kingdom come.

Hoss

[william clark]

And in what third-party, objective publications was this project validated? Anyone can claim to have done something and self-publish it. If the only evidence of this scientific validation is the claim of the participants, it has less supporting it than the occasional cold-fusion breakthrough claims.

[fetal heart beats by 21st day]

Gospel of John, chapter six. It’s all there.

[NYer]

Who needs to go to the Colosseum, when you can go to a “religious” thread and witness the spectacle of Christians eating each other?

It certainly seems that way at times but most of these spectacles are nothing more than miscommunication. Words have meaning but they oftentimes have different meanings; hence the misunderstandings. These threads offer an opportunity to clarify what we believe and, hopefully, agree upon a common understanding.

The first and second century christians were persecuted by being covered with pitch and set ablaze to light the Colosseum. Today, with crude prices on the rise, that would prove too costly ;-)

[fetal heart beats by 21st day]

May the Holy Spirit guide you safely home.

[NYer]

You are saying that Jesus commanded the disciples to teach more information than could possibly be written down to the ends of the world. It is only feasible if the all these things Jesus instructed the apostles to teach were of small enough quantity to be passed on to other people. Otherwise the apostles would have no idea where to start or what things to mention first. Jesus would have provided a task that would have overwhelmed any human being. I think that is an utterly ridiculous position to have to take.

Jesus NEVER commanded His disciples to write anything down. In fact, other than what He scribbled in the sand, He himself did not write anything down. Mark 13:31 tells us that heaven and earth will pass away, but Jesus' Word will not pass away. But Jesus never says anything about His Word being entirely committed to a book. Also, it took 400 years to compile the Bible, and another 1,000 years to invent the printing press. How was the Word of God communicated? Orally, by the bishops of the Church, with the guidance and protection of the Holy Spirit. Acts 2:42 provides a glimpse into how the members obeyed apostolic tradition (doctrine, prayers, and the breaking of bread). Their obedience was not to the Scriptures alone. Tradition (in Greek, "paradosis") means "to hand on" teaching. And in John 17:20, Jesus prays for all who believe in Him through the oral word of the apostles. Jesus protects oral apostolic teaching.

Not everything was written down and some of what was written conflicts with itself - ex: the various accounts of the Sermon on the Mount. This is yet one more example of why Sola Scriptura does not work.

[big'ol_freeper]

Thank you. As is usual your insight is right on the mark and can only be refuted with false information and lies. In other words what you present is irrefutable truth.

[NYer]

I would agree with Luther if he removed it. ;)

The Book of Maccabees? By what authority did he remove books from the Canon? His own? If so, then any of may choose to accept or reject books from Scripture.

[windsorknot]

That brings to mind the famous line from Cool Hand Luke: What we've got here is failure to communicate. ;>)

[NYer]

I don’t understand why it is assumed a Christian group is not legitimate unless they can prove they were a “church in exile” during the Apostolic and Ante Nicene era.

According to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23).  We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5).  There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many.  For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many.  Also, since the Church is Christ's Bride (Ephesians 5:29), can Christ be married to more than one wife (essentially a spiritual form of the the sin of polygamy)?  No, Christ can only have one wife (i.e., one Church, not many).

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks.

I wouldn't base the argument on need, and you know that el standardo answer that we ask others to pray for us, while it's not clear that we need to (though we seem to be told to pray for others.)

[Salvation]

Transubstantiation—Hard to Believe? [open]

On Daily Bread [OPEN]

The Meal of Melchizedek (what is meant by Christ’s words, "This is my body; this is my blood")

The Eucharist: The Lord's Supper

This is My Body, This is My Blood

Pope Benedict--Jesus' Incarnation and Presence in the Eucharist confounds the wisdom of men

Corpus Christi Quiz

Pope leads Corpus Christi observance

Day 37 of Pope Benedict XV's Reign - Feast of Corpus Christi

Feast of Corpus Christi - Sacrifice, Fellowship Meal or Real Presence?

The Eucharist and the Mystery of Fatherly Love

The Consecrated Host truly is the Bread of Heaven

Corpus Christi Around the World

Corpus Christi

Homily of Pope Benedict XVI for the Feast of Corpus Christi

Back to the Future: Reviving Corpus Christi Processions

The Banquet of Corpus Christi - "Why did Jesus give us His Body and Blood?"

A Reflection on Corpus Christi

Pope Leads Corpus Christi Procession - "We Entrust These Streets to His Goodness"

Corpus Christi celebrations in Poland (gallery)

HOMILIES PREACHED BY FATHER ALTIER ON CORPUS CHRISTI SUNDAY FROM 2001-2005

[lastchance]

Nyer, Oh I understand and I agree. But trying to prove that a Baptist style church existed before the Reformation is a twisted abuse of history and only makes those who argue for this look like fools.