EWTN - The Journey Home - May 19 - Tom Cabeen, former Jehovah's Witness [Ecumenic]

EWTN ^ | May 19, 2008

[NYer]

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Biography of Tom Cabeen

My parents were baptized as Jehovah’s Witnesses in the spring of 1954, shortly after my

fourth birthday. My father, a old-fashioned cattle rancher and cowboy, had grown up mostly

without church of any kind. My mother had been a nominal Methodist, but did not attend

church very regularly. They were attracted to the Watchtower version of Christianity and

embraced their beliefs very enthusiastically. Within two years, believing the end of the world

(Armageddon) to be imminent, they sold their new home in Phoenix, Arizona and

volunteered to move “where the need is great.” In 1956, my father was appointed to oversee

the Cottonwood, Arizona congregation, which at that time consisted only of our family of

three and one very old Witness woman. By 1960, it had grown into a small but zealous

congregation of about a dozen families.

Dad brushed up on his high school Spanish and started a small Bible study among a group of

Hispanics in the Cottonwood area. Later, at the Watchtower Society’s request, we moved to El

Centro, in southern California, where he served as Overseer of a Spanish-speaking

congregation. My mother and I started at that time to learn Spanish. I learned it rather easily,

but she had much more difficulty with it. She never learned to speak it fluently. A couple of

years later we were asked to move to a small Spanish congregation in Casa Grande, Arizona.

After I graduated high school in 1967, I became a full-time door-to-door preacher (Pioneer).

As a result, I was classified as a Minister of Religion from my local draft board and exempted

from military service. In the summer of 1968, at my parents’ suggestion, I applied to serve at

the world headquarters of Jehovah’s Witnesses in Brooklyn, New York. I was invited to serve

there starting November 14, 1968.

Success in Brooklyn

At Bethel (as the headquarters is called), I applied myself diligently to my work. I was also

determined to learn as much as possible about Watchtower teachings. My willingness to work

hard and a natural aptitude for the work assigned to me resulted in my being given increasing

responsibilities, generally much more than was usual for someone my age.

Shortly after I went to Bethel, my parents, encouraged by my example, began Pioneering. My

dad was invited to become a traveling Circuit Overseer. He worked with Spanish-speaking

congregations in the southwest and northeast of the United States for over ten years.

In New York, I was appointed a member of a Service Committee in my local congregation

when I was 19, and subsequently as an elder in 1971, when I was 21. The following year I was

appointed a “Bethel Elder.” As such, I often spoke as a Watchtower Society representative at

their conventions. (I was the featured speaker at a District Assembly in Roanoke, VA, at age

27.)

At Bethel, I was assigned to work on the large printing press which produced TheWatchtower

magazine. About a year later, I became a foreman over several presses. When I was 27, I was

appointed overseer of the Pressroom. I cultivated friendships with mature, responsible

members of the Bethel staff, many of whom worked in Writing, Service and other offices

where the most respected, loyal and mature Witnesses were assigned. I was having many in-

depth discussions with them about the Society’s teachings and the functioning of the

organization.

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Late in 1973, I became reacquainted with a lovely young woman named Gloria, also a

Bethelite, whom I had met shortly after she arrived in 1971. We dated, fell in love, and were

married on May 25, 1974. Gloria, like me, was zealous for the Watchtower Society and a hard

worker. We had both decided to completely dedicate our lives full-time in the few remaining

years before Armageddon as members of the headquarters staff. We both learned French and

volunteered to work with French-speaking Witnesses, mostly Haitians, in Newark, New Jersey.

Disturbing questions arise

Although I had been a Witness for nearly 10 years when I came to Bethel (I was baptized in

1959), I had never read through the Bible. Doing so raised many questions in my mind. The

more I read, the more inconsistencies I found between plain statements in Scripture and my

Witness beliefs. At first I attributed my lack of understanding to youth and inexperience. But

as time went on and I began to be more respected and trusted, I began to cautiously discuss

my Bible questions with older, well-respected members of the headquarters staff. I was

surprised to discover how many of them were struggling with the same problems as I, and

how openly they discussed them.

I began to look at Watchtower teachings in a new way starting after the release of Aid toBible

Understanding in 1971. Organizational changes which followed opened the door to a

reexamination of other foundational teachings. I wondered “If we have been wrong about so

many activities we formerly thought to be solidly based on scripture, why couldn’t we be

wrong about doctrines, too?” I was not alone in asking this question. During the 1970's, a

growing number of sincere people at headquarters began to read other Bible translations

than the Watchtower’s own New World Translation, as well as Bible commentaries, and to

gather in informal groups, where we studied and discussed things openly, without the

“assistance” of Watchtower publications. By 1979, I became convinced that there could be no

reconciling some key Watchtower teachings with the Bible. However, I still trusted that God

was guiding the organization, so I believed that big changes were ahead. I awaited them with

eager expectation.

My wife Gloria, on the other hand, was unhappy at Bethel. Her difficulties were not primarily

doctrinal, but had to do with the way people were treated. She wanted to leave Bethel and

start a family. For me, the Watchtower chronology was correct, so I could not imagine why

anyone would want to leave with the end so close. I brought the matter up to a trusted friend

on the Governing Body, Ray Franz. He gave me a copy of a letter that had been written to the

Watchtower Society by Carl Olof Jonsson, a Witness elder from Sweden. Jonsson presented

indisputable evidence that the Watchtower chronology was in serious error. His logic and

documentation was solid and scholarly. I read and reread the evidence. Finally, I was

convinced by the evidence. I was also heartsick.

What was so hard to accept was not so much the error itself but its corollary: Chronology was

and is absolutely essential to establish the Watchtower Society’s claim to be God’s “channel of

communication” to mankind in the brief period before the end of the world. I began to

seriously consider the possibility that the Watchtower Society was not what it claimed to be. It

seemed certain that the leaders of the Society were misled at best, or hypocrites and false

prophets at worst.

Although I had thoroughly enjoyed my service with them, and loved my Witness brothers and

sisters dearly, it appeared virtually certain that there would be a parting of the ways. I simply

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lost my desire to actively support something I no longer believed in. My headquarters career

was over.

In the midst of this tumultuous time, my parents came to New York from Texas to visit Gloria

and me. Because of some expressions I made about the disfellowshipping of some of our

close friends, they sensed that my former totally supportive attitude toward the organization

was changing. I assured them that I would never abandon God, Jesus Christ or the Bible, but I

could not deny that I had serious questions about the organization’s authority.

But with faith in Watchtower chronology gone, there was no reason to postpone our desire to

have a family. We decided to leave Bethel as soon as possible. We left on July 15, 1980.

I was not ready to simply walk away from my whole community. Our entire life was tied up

with Jehovah’s Witnesses. It also seemed that we would be in a better position to help our

parents understand how my thinking had changed if we were still associated. Things didn’t

work out the way I hoped. A deep rift lasting a quarter of a century started then. It continued

to grow until I was cut off almost completely from my parents. I was never reconciled with my

father before he died in 2002. I still love and miss him.

Our life was now to totally change. We had to start our lives over. We had no money, for the

previous twelve years had been spent as an unpaid volunteer. I had studied hard, and had

both job experience and technical expertise, but had no college degree. I borrowed $300

from my father-in-law to move our few possessions to Lancaster, PA. We lived with Gloria’s

parents for 10 weeks until I could get a job and find a place to live.

Disfellowshipped (Excommunicated)

We had left the headquarters of our own volition, and I was still in good standing with the

organization, so shortly after we arrived in Pennsylvania, I was appointed an elder. I had

doubts, but I saw no reason to withdraw from Jehovah’s Witnesses, as long as my association

with them did not require me to violate my conscience. However, I found that to be

increasingly difficult, as the main thrust of the Watchtower publications for months was

warnings against and condemnation of “apostates” who disagreed with Watchtower

teachings. After a year or so, I resigned my position of elder. By this time we had a son,

Matthew, born on August 9, 1981.

About a year and a half later, the congregation elders of Lancaster PA asked to speak with

Gloria and me after the regular Thursday night Service Meeting. It turned out to be an

informal judicial hearing. I was questioned (in Gloria’s presence) for an hour or two about

whether I had any “doubts.” The only specific subject about which I was questioned was

whether I believed the Watchtower Society to be Jehovah’s organization. I replied that I

believed that God had worked through Jehovah’s Witnesses, but was unwilling to limit him to

working through them exclusively. He is God, after all, I said, and he can do whatever he

wants. The meeting ended with no action taken. Although we had been fairly active with the

congregation for over two and a half years, few, if any, had any idea that we had doubts.

However, within a couple of days, many had heard that we were “doubters”.

We were asked to attend a second brief meeting a couple of weeks later. The elders informed

us that since our doubts had become “common knowledge” in the congregation, they had to

take some action. I mentioned that no one in the congregation knew anything about any

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Many disfellowshipped Witnesses have family members or spouses who are still loyal to the

1

organization. We felt that an innocuous name might make it easier to send materials to someone without

alerting Witness family members to the fact that the recipient was talking to former JWs, which is strictly

forbidden. As I recall, Ray Franz suggested the name, although he was never a BRCI board member.

doubts before the elders met with us, so the elders themselves must have spread that idea

after our meeting. (One of their wives had told Gloria’s sister-in-law about the meeting.) One

of the elders replied, “How the information got to be known is not the issue. Now that it is

public, we must take action.” They announced their decision to disfellowship us. This would

mean that our family and friends would be required to completely shun us or face the same

action against them.

It appeared to us that the decision to expel us had been made before they met with us, based

on factors other than evidence or our own testimony, so it seemed to serve no purpose to

appeal the decision. Thus ended nearly three decades of our association with Jehovah’s

Witnesses. Our religious community had rejected us, and we were on our own.

Does God work through an organization?

Despite how we were treated, there were many admirable things about Witnesses which I was

sure were right. I had discovered error, but what I wanted was truth. I needed some reliable

way to know which Watchtower teachings were true and which were false. Because I once

believed that God uses the Watchtower organization as an exclusive channel to communicate

with his people, that was the first focus of my reflections. I hoped to be able to write an essay

that would help my parents (primarily) to see why I had changed some of my views about the

Watchtower Society.

Using my concordance and Bible dictionary, I began to carefully search the Scriptures for

evidence as to whether or not God had ever used any organization as an official instrument to

communicate with or direct humans. I concluded that he did not, and published my research

in an article entitled “Does God Work Through an Organization?” It was eventually translated

into several languages and saw fairly wide circulation among exiting Witnesses, particularly

after the Internet came into wide use. Although I acted in good conscience at the time, I am

somewhat sad now at the degree of success I had, and must accept the fact that most likely

many were misled by my writings. Initially, I did not understand the difference between

human organizations and the true church, the body of Christ. Later, I revised my article to

show that Christ was joined organically with his body, which was not like human

organizations. But I still had much to learn about what Jesus had started and preserved: a

visible church, a living body in which he dwells.

An outreach to former Witnesses

After we left Bethel, I kept in touch with ex-Witness friends and added new ones. A growing

network was forming, exchanging comfort and encouragement. In the summer of 1983, my

friend Peter Gregerson invited us and a number of other former Witnesses to a meeting,

where it was decided to formalize that network into a ministry. We called our group Biblical

Researchand Commentary, Incorporated, BRCI for short. Its purpose was to produce materials

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and provide support to help exiting Witnesses make the very difficult transition out of the

Watchtower Society and into the “outside world”. The next summer, 1984, the first of many

annual meetings was held in Gadsden, Alabama.

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We set up a confidential telephone help line to comfort persons who were hurt by leaving the

Watchtower organization. Shortly after its publication, my Organizationarticle was always

included in the packet of information sent to callers of the BRCI Help Line.

Church experiences

For the first seven years or so, Gloria and I read and studied the Bible on our own or with other

former Witnesses with whom we met every other week in a small support group. We formed

strong social bonds with these dear friends, but our spiritual growth was slow. Usually, our

discussions were more centered on things we once believed to be true, but had rejected. We

often covered much the same ground every time we got together. Finally Gloria said, “I am

tired of going over and over these same old things. I want to learn something newand true

about Christ!” By now, we also had a second son James, born November 22, 1986.

As our two boys began to get older, we felt a growing need to find Bible-believing Christians

with whose children ours could associate. Many of the children in our neighborhood were

being raised as secular humanists, and did not share either our Christian morals nor our views

about the importance of pleasing God.

We visited a local church and quickly became friends with the pastor and his wife. When he

found out about my background, he asked me to teach an adult Sunday school class. I was

surprised that he did not ask me for many details of my actual beliefs. Nor did he ever attend

the class to see what I was teaching. This seemed strange to me, for whom doctrinal accuracy

was still important. But I always taught “orthodoxy” in the sense that I could support my

teaching both from passages of Scripture and respected Protestant commentaries.

Neither Gloria nor I ever joined that church. Due to our experience with the Watchtower

Society, we did not want to become members of any “organized” religious. After I taught

there for about a year, the pastor reluctantly asked me to step down as a teacher, as he felt

that he couldn’t have someone teaching classes who was not a member of the church. I didn’t

blame him. Overall, it was a good experience. We made many Christian friends. We learned

that evangelical Christians do not feel nearly so strongly about doctrinal truth as we did.

We looked for another community of believers, one with plenty of programs for kids. We

eventually settled into an independent evangelical Baptist fellowship. We met many fine

Christian people there, and quickly got involved in church activities. A few months after we

began associating with that church, I was again asked to teach an adult Bible class, which I did

almost continuously for nearly fourteen years.

History lessons

Late in the 1990s, I started working on another article to supplement the one I wrote about

the organization. Its aim was to help former JWs find and associate with other believers. I

wanted to make them feel comfortable by helping them see that many churches of today

teach and worship similarly to the first century disciples. I though it would be helpful to show

what the earliest Christians were like, how their congregations were structured, how they

lived and worshiped, and how that differed from JW teaching and practice. I wanted them to

see that Christian living was what mattered most, and encouraged them to join any “Bible-

believing” Christian fellowship.

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I started out using only the Scriptures, but soon found that so many things taught and done

in churches cannot be supported directly from Scripture alone. I ended up buying history

books—dozens, eventually, in addition to doing plenty of research on the Internet. I finished

Where is the Body of Christ? and received some nice comments on it. But what I discovered

raised far more questions in my mind than it answered.

A major paradigm shift

As I did research, I began to run across references to the “Early Church Fathers.” Practically

every scholarly source respected them very highly, Catholic and Protestant alike (a few

modern scholars excepted). At the time, I knew very little about these writers. When I learned

in the late 1990s that my friend David Bercot had published a Dictionary of Early Christian

Beliefs, I bought a copy. I glanced at it but didn’t read much. I had my own ideas about what

the early church was like and how they believed and worshiped.

Nearly twenty years had passed since I had I left the Watchtower Society, but I still believed

that sometime shortly after the end of the first century, the faithful early apostolic church was

transformed into the corrupt Roman Catholic Church. The Reformers, I later learned, had a

somewhat similar view, except that they dated “the great apostasy” into the fourth or fifth

century or even later. Both Luther and Calvin, however, believed that the ante-Nicene church

was truly authentic. One purpose of the Reformation, in their mind, was to restore the church

to its original ante-Nicene purity.

I began to think about the implications of the “great apostasy” idea. One corollary is that Jesus

had no congregation of faithful followers, no visible body of believers or church on earth, for

an extended time, possibly many centuries, until some individual (Martin Luther, John Calvin,

John Wesley, Joseph Smith, Charles Russell or someone else), reading only the writings of

early Christians, understood them correctly and “restored” true apostolic Christianity to earth.

I came to see this view as untenable. It would mean that most people who lived between the

apostasy and the “restoration”, whenever it supposedly came about, would have virtually no

chance to become true Christians, since apparently no one was capable of recognizing and

teaching “the plain truths taught in the Bible” until the reformers came along.

The church: visible or invisible?

I also thought seriously about what the true church of Jesus Christ must look like. Due to my

own experience, for many years I found it easy to accept and promote the “invisible church”

view, in which all members of the “one holy catholic and apostolic church” are scattered

throughout all the world’s nominally Christian denominations, those men and women in each

Christian community who really take their faith seriously and attempt to live by the Scriptures,

even though most faith communities I saw were full of sinful people who apparently didn’t

practice their faith devoutly. But as I thought about it, I began to see that there were

insurmountable problems with that “invisible church” perspective.

An invisible church is a “community” of scattered individuals who do not know each other,

nor are in contact with each other. In fact, it has no outward, visible characteristics at all (it is

invisible, after all). We can know nothing for sure about such a church: where it is, what its

members believe and how they worship. I came to see the whole thing as imaginary. It looks

like whatever we want it to look like, for there is never anything real with which to compare it.

It is a “church” of our own construction.

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More importantly, it doesn't look anything at all like the church described in the New

Testament, which was full of real people, saints and sinners. It had structure, including elders,

deacons, to whose leadership the disciples of Christ submitted, to a greater or lesser degree.

Every congregation of God’s people described in Scripture is not only visible, it is human, with

all the problems which exist in any family, group, club, or community of human beings

anywhere. How could an invisible church be “salt and light” in the community? How could

unbelievers see their good works and give glory to God? Even the reformers, though they

rejected the authority of Rome, recognized the existence of a visible body of believers.

I continued reading history books, as well as the early Christian writings, which I saw as

accurate representations of what the main body of Christians only a few generations away

from the apostles believed and practiced. I was surprised that so many concepts and

teachings I once rejected had been presented to me incorrectly, even dishonestly, in

Watchtower and evangelical literature, then explained away as illogical or unscriptural. As the

early Christians presented them, they usually made more sense and fit the Scriptures better

than many of the explanations I had read in Protestant commentaries.

I began to accept a growing number of the teachings I found there simply because they were

so clear and sensible and scriptural. As I became convinced of their validity, gradually my

understanding of Christianity began to change. “Problem passages” with which I had

struggled for years slowly began to disappear. Everything was starting to really fit together

(for the first time in my life). My entire understanding of Christianity changed.

Sacraments

The early Christians believed that the bread and wine served at communion, when blessed by

the Christian elder officiating, actually became the body and blood of Jesus Christ. Of course,

this is exactly what Jesus actually says in John chapter 6, but most Protestants take Jesus’

words to be symbolic. None of the early Christians did. Few Christians before the Reformation

even questioned that teaching.

This was my introduction to the concept of “sacraments” or “mysteries” of the Christian faith,

material objects throughwhichGod could transmit grace to his people. I had never heard

about them from the Witnesses or evangelical Christians. The whole idea was new and

strange to me. But as I read and prayed and thought about it, it began to make more and

more sense.

Briefly, sacramental worship teaches that God works through simple things such as water,

bread, wine, oil and human hands. These material objects, when blessed and used by

authorized leaders of the church Jesus founded and their successors, became instruments

through which God’s grace was communicated to fallen humans, playing a key part in healing

and restoring them to full fellowship with our heavenly Father. In this perspective, God works

throughhis creation, not around or in spite of it.

At first, I though such a thing to be totally unscriptural. But, guided by the early Christians, I

began to see it everywhere in the Bible. One example: Naaman, a Syrian leper, was healed by

obeying Elisha’s command (transmitted through a greedy servant, by the way) to bathe seven

times in the Jordan river. The water wasn’t magic, but Naaman had to obey the command and

bathe inthatspecific water to be healed. (1 Kings 5) Early Christians believed that the waters of

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baptism had the power to wash or remove sin from new disciples (Acts 22:16), just as it had

removed the leprosy from Naaman.

Other examples: Jesus healed a blind man by making mud, putting it on his eyes, and

ordering him to wash in the pool of Siloam. (John 9:6-11) A woman who trusted that if she just

touched the hem of Jesus’ garment, she would be healed, actually was healed. The cloth

wasn’t magical, but in combination with her faith, it became the meansby which Jesus’ power

was transmitted to her. (Matt 9:20-22) As I read the Scriptures, I began to notice how many

accounts of powerful works done by Jesus and the apostles involved physical acts like

touching or breathing on the recipients, or used objects like bread, fish, oil or wine.

A shocking discovery!

About that time, I was browsing a used book sale and saw a copy of the Catholic Catechism for

50 cents. I bought it and started to read. I was shocked at what I found! The Catholic

explanation of the Christian faith and morals, including salvation, baptism, redemption and

atonement, were much more like those of the early church than those in any Protestant

commentary I had read. It quite often referred to the early Christians as a source of authority.

From that point on, I began to take a serious look at the Roman Catholic church. I was

surprised at how closely their teachings and practices agreed with the early Christian

perspective. But how could I explain the many Catholics who apparently did not take their

Christianity seriously? At first I struggled with the concept, but as I thought and prayed about

it, I began to remember that God used ancient Israel as a “container” for the divine

self-revelation given through Moses for over fifteen centuries, even though most Israelites

and even their leaders were unfaithful. Why could he not do the same thing in connection

with the universal, orthodox church which he founded?

Sacred Tradition

I had learned, primarily from Jewish sources, how much of Jewish practice had been handed

down for centuries in oral form. Moses communicated the regulations of the Law covenant to

the Israelites at Sinai. But not all of it was put in writing. The verbal traditions were first put

into written form (in the Talmud and Mishnah) after the destruction of the second temple in

the first century AD. Of course, Jesus said that the Pharisees had “made the word of God

invalid by their traditions.” But, I realized, that did not mean that all tradition was bad, only the

ones men had created that were in conflict with God’s revelation to them.

Scripture clearly says that Christ revealed many things to his disciples which were not written

down (Jn 21:25). It also says that “the church” (not the holy writings) is the “pillar and

foundation of the truth.” The things Jesus taught his disciples orally were not “added to

Scripture” by the apostles. They were taught orally to the new disciples they made. Scripture

was composed within afully functioningchurch setting inwhichevery single Christian teaching

had beentaught orally for decades. When the apostle Paul wrote epistles to congregations, he

had usually spent much time with them prior to that, teaching them orally. His letters could

and often did leave many things unstated. They primarily deal with exceptions, not the

normal teachings and practices everyone knew and had been taught orally.

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Point of Decision: We Press on in Faith and Are Rewarded

Eventually, the evidence became conclusive. My investigations into the historical early church

allowed me to adopt a Catholic perspective without my former prejudice against the Catholic

church getting in the way. Gloria took a more intuitive approach, but her heart was also

telling her that the Catholic Church is what we had been searching for since we rejected man-

made Watchtower teachings. What we have found in Catholic teachings is astounding: deep,

scriptural, historically supportable, elegant, logically-coherent teachings, not just satisfying to

the head, but also to the heart. We feel like this is where we have belonged all these years. We

have found the writings of other converts to Catholic Christianity particularly helpful. We now

realize that we have barely scratched the surface in examining Christianity.

Serious Catholic theologians are spiritual giants. By reading them, I have learned so much

about God and his ways that I never even knew existed! I read G. K. Chesterton’s The

EverlastingMan,which influenced C. S. Lewis to become a Christian. His Orthodoxy, Heresy and

conversion story truly struck a chord within me. C. S. Lewis, although Anglican, is very highly

regarded by Catholic apologists, for his theology is completely orthodox. Frank Sheed’s A

Map of Life, Theology for Beginners andTheology and Sanity are clear and concise. Books by

contemporary converts to Catholicism like Jimmy Akin, Thomas Howard, Karl Keating, Scott

Hahn, Dave Armstrong and Peter Kreeft have been particularly helpful at addressing

questions Protestants have about the Catholic faith. Dr. Kreeft’s Catholic Christianity and his

Christian Apologetics (with Ron Tacelli) are more clear and comprehensive than any Protestant

defense of Christianity I ever read. These people are not misled, as I once thought. They think

far more deeply about most matters than I ever did, and were willing to risk their lives and

careers to follow truth wherever it led.

For a long time, I made the mistake of judging Catholic teachings by Catholic people, most of

whom (like their Protestant cousins) are rather indifferent about theology. But after I accepted

the historical evidence that the Catholic faith was the original and fullest expression of

Christianity, not to be judged by the behavior of sinful believers, my perspective changed.

I began to read Catholic writings enthusiastically. Catholic explanations of Christianity fit the

Scriptures, the real world and the human heart. I honestly believe that anyone who followed

them faithfully would become a man or woman of God. Catholic teachings are solid, fulfilling

and upright. We came to them slowly and carefully, following truth and identifying and

rejecting error. I shared the things I was reading with Gloria. She read and reflected. We

discussed some things, but I did not want her to be pressured into a decision but to make up

her own mind. She kept reading, then one day she said simply, “We should become

Catholics.” (She had been baptized as a Catholic as an infant.) We consummated our desire to

become part of the great ancient Church by meeting with our local parish pastor, Father

James Cronin, for several months to review Catholic teachings. We were received into the

Roman Catholic Church on Friday, June 9, 2006.

We are thrilled to be Catholics, and we are happy to share the good things we have found

with former Jehovah’s Witness or evangelical Christian companions, or our new Catholic ones.

We are completely happy within the ancient church of Jesus Christ. We are home.

[NYer]

Pinging only you so you can ping your list. FYI - very poor understanding of the the Catholic faith at the JH Online Discussion forum. Here's the link.

[DogwoodSouth]

I’m really not trying to be a jerk, so I hope this doesn’t come off this way - I just have a general question. Why are alot of the threads in this forum now being labeled as “ecumenic”? Wouldn’t a more correct word be “ecumenical”? Just wondering why so many threads have started using the former instead of the latter label.

[Vaquero]

“There must be some way out of here,” said the joker to the thief,
“There's too much confusion, I can't get no relief.
Businessmen, they drink my wine, plowmen dig my earth,
None of them along the line know what any of it is worth.”

“No reason to get excited,” the thief, he kindly spoke,
“There are many here among us who feel that life is but a joke.
But you and I, we've been through that, and this is not our fate,
So let us not talk falsely now, the hour is getting late.”

All along the watchtower, princes kept the view
While all the women came and went, barefoot servants, too.

Outside in the distance a wildcat did growl,
Two riders were approaching, the wind began to howl.

[Religion Moderator]

I am a lazy typist.

[DogwoodSouth]

Gotcha. No harm, no foul - curiosity assuaged. Thanks!

[beelzepug]

Most dictionaries - well, mine, anyway - show either word to be acceptable, with ecumenical listed first. I guess lazy typist works as well as any other reason.

More important, however, is the really GOOD news that the Cabeens have seen the truth and the light and left the cult that would only have brought them to a sad end. Praise God!

[NYer]

I just have a general question. Why are alot of the threads in this forum now being labeled as “ecumenic”?

You'll have to ask the Mod why the word "ecumenic" vs "ecumenical" was chosen.

[Colofornian]

From the bio:

It turned out to be an informal judicial hearing. I was questioned (in Gloria’s presence) for an hour or two about whether I had any “doubts.” The only specific subject about which I was questioned was whether I believed the Watchtower Society to be Jehovah’s organization. I replied that I believed that God had worked through Jehovah’s Witnesses, but was unwilling to limit him to working through them exclusively. He is God, after all, I said, and he can do whatever he wants. The meeting ended with no action taken. Although we had been fairly active with the congregation for over two and a half years, few, if any, had any idea that we had doubts. However, within a couple of days, many had heard that we were “doubters”…

Yes, I agree with the "turning away" this ex-JW took. This ex-JW concluded that he was unwilling to limit him [Jehovah God] to working through them [the Watchtower organization] exclusively. He is God, after all, I said, and he can do whatever he wants.

[Insert our own particular denomination or local church in the above...and if we conclude that God only works thru that denomination in an exclusive salvific way, then I would say we've thereby substituted a church for Jesus Christ, Son of God, as being "The Way" (John 14:6)]

From the bio:: Using my concordance and Bible dictionary, I began to carefully search the Scriptures for evidence as to whether or not God had ever used any organization as an official instrument to communicate with or direct humans. I concluded that he did not, and published my research in an article entitled “Does God Work Through an Organization?” It was eventually translated into several languages and saw fairly wide circulation among exiting Witnesses, particularly after the Internet came into wide use.

Similar to the above, this is an emphasis on an organization instead of organism, which it sounds like he recognized. The Body of Christ is the latter--not merely some "organization" based in either Rome or Salt Lake City. (It's "based" in heaven!)

[NYer]

.and if we conclude that God only works thru that denomination in an exclusive salvific way, then I would say we've thereby substituted a church for Jesus Christ, Son of God, as being "The Way" (John 14:6)]

Actually Scripture tells us that the Church is the final authority of Christianity. (Matthew 18:17).

Similar to the above, this is an emphasis on an organization instead of organism, which it sounds like he recognized. The Body of Christ is the latter--not merely some "organization" based in either Rome or Salt Lake City.

The Church was never intended to be a loose conglomerate of believers but a structured organization. Scripture clearly established "offices" and a "hierarchy" among Christians.  The offices of "bishop, priest (presbyter) and deacon" are mentioned in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1,8; Titus 1:7 ).  This is organization. Also, according to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23).  We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5).  There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many.  For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many. 

[Colofornian]

Thank you for your response.

Scripture clearly established "offices" and a "hierarchy" among Christians. The offices of "bishop, priest (presbyter) and deacon" are mentioned in Scripture (1 Timothy 3:1,8; Titus 1:7). This is organization.

I would not confuse "organization" with "order." An "organization" can be dead (part of the "visible" church, perhaps?...the "tares" mentioned by Christ?). Whereas an "organism" is alive.

What you mention above is actually not so much a "what" ("offices") but a "who" (people!) Bishops, priests & deacons are foremost people, and were people, and will continue to be people, long after the titles vanish in the wind.

As for the hierarchy, yes order & structure are important, but you can see what happens when the dynamic exits order & structure to leave only an empty hierarchy (we call that "governmental bureaucracies!")

Also, according to Scripture, Christ wanted us to be one (John 17:22-23). We are all as a Church to be of one mind and to think the same (Philippians 2:2; Romans 15:5). There is only to be one "faith" (Ephesians 4:3-6), not many. For the Church is Christ's Body and Christ only had one Body, not many.

Well, indeed. But it is, as you say, one "Body"--and every alive body I know is a living organism not a shell of an organization.

Actually Scripture tells us that the Church is the final authority of Christianity. (Matthew 18:17).

Well, actually last time I looked Jesus said "ALL" (not some) authority had been given to HIM! (Matt 28:18). And then He added He would be with His disciples even unto the end of the age! (Matt. 28:20). And the apostle Paul describes Him in Ephesians and to the Corinthians as the "Head" of the body. (You're not saying that someone guillotined Christ, are you?)

So the final authority is the earthly Presence of Jesus...His Presence is wrapped up in that of the Holy Spirit, who resides in the temple of...fanfare, please! PEOPLE! "The God-made temple" is not based @ the Vatican or in Salt Lake City, for those are but man- made structures.

As for the verse you cited, let me quote it: If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector. (Matt. 18:17)

Maybe I missed it, but where do you get the Church as the final authority of Christianity out of those words?

I would simply re-iterate that authority rests in the Son of God and while His people derive authority from Him, there's a big difference between derivation and outright 100% delegation to an institution--even a divinely created institution.

[Petronski]

That’s funny right there, I don’t care who y’are!

[Salvation]

** “ecumenical”?**

I agree with you. For what’s it worth.

[Religion Moderator]

Call it “ecumenical” if you wish. I’ll continue to type the fewest number of characters.